CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

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WingCommander
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CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by WingCommander » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:04 pm

Can someone please tell me what is needed (if anything) to be able to fly microlights in Ireland using a CAA PPL (A). There's lots of conflicting advice out there!!

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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by mark » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:43 pm

Hi WingCommander,

Good question. The situation is about to get very complicated.....

I'm assuming you have a JAR issued CAA PPL. As the CAA adopted EASA Part-FCL on September 17th 2012 your licence is now an EASA Part FCL licence (even though it probably has JAR FCL written on it until it is reissued by the CAA at the next amendment)

Part FCL introduces a number of issues and while it was intended to be a pan European licence it now appears to be more disjointed than JAR.

Firstly an EASA licence can only be used to fly an EASA aircraft. I can't find the exact definition now but this basically means aircraft with an EASA permit to fly, EASA CofA or any aircraft issued with a CofA before the existence of EASA (grandfather rights for most existing GA aircraft). So anyone flying the common GA aircraft like C150's, C172's, PA28's have no problems.

However one of the issues with this is that if the aircraft does not have a CofA (i.e. permit to fly) you can no longer fly that aircraft using your existing licence (now EASA). To give a practical example, on the apron in Weston are two Piper Cubs. One is issued with a CofA and the other with a permit to fly. Technically you can no longer fly the Cub with the permit to fly as you licence does not cover you (crazy I know!). At least the CAA anticipated this problem and have amended their Air Navigation Order to allow pilots to fly non-EASA aircraft on their EASA licence in UK airspace if they hold an appropriate rating (e.g. SEP).

The IAA will not adopt Part FCL until April 7th 2013 so for the moment the status quo remains. You can fly permit aircraft on your JAR-FCL licence (or microlights if you hold a 3 Axis microlight rating).

Another issue with the EASA licence is that you cannot add a non-EASA rating to it (like the 3-Axis microlight rating).

Unfortunately the guidance from the IAA has been very disappointing on this issue. It does not look like they will amend national legislation to allow us to fly non-EASA aircraft on our EASA licence even if we hold the appropriate ratings. (I believe they are claiming the UK CAA are acting illegally having amended their ANO!!!)

So to come back to your question.... As you now hold an EASA licence you cannot fly microlights in Irish airspace. You will probably need to get an IAA issued national PPL based on your UK EASA licence and add a 3 axis microlight rating to that. As I said above the IAA have issued ZERO guidance on this subject so I can only assume this will be the case.

I'm in the same situation (except I hold an Irish JAR licence). From April 7th next year I will need to get an Irish national licence to continue to fly microlights and permit aircraft!!

--------

On a separate note which may be useful to know for UK licence holders flying in Ireland. After November 17th 2012 if you renew your SEP rating in Ireland you will no longer be able to get an Irish examiner to sign your licence. You will need a UK examiner to sign the licence. Irish examiners may be permitted to sign the licence if they complete a "briefing" from the competent authority (in this case the CAA) but given the costs involved I can't see many examiners doing that.

Hope I haven't confused you too much but this is going to be a serious headache for pilots next April.

Regards,
Mark
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Post by JFH » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:48 pm

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Last edited by JFH on Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by mark » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:32 am

Hi JFH,
JFH wrote:You can (right now if you have a current SEP rating) fly 3-axis microlights in the United Kingdom.

A JAR CAA issued PPL(A) holder can fly 3-axis microlights. You don't have to get a NPPL or a new rating. (However, a NPPL holder wishing to fly say a C152 would have to do a PPL A course).
This may still be the case in the UK...

JFH wrote:I know a IAA PPL holder who got around this in the summer just gone by insted converting his IAA PPL to a CAA PPL (saved him doing the 5 hours and the test here).
This is no longer possible as the UK now operate under Part FCL (Since September 17th 2012). Now if you switch to a UK licence you will have an EASA PPL which will limit you to flying EASA only aircraft (except in UK airspace where you can continue to fly permit aircraft). The IAA (and most other National CAA's) will not accept you flying a non EASA aircraft on an EASA licence even if you have the relevant rating.
JFH wrote:Now, not so long ago, the IAA and CAA made an agreement where NPPL pilots can fly EI/G in Ireland. Ergo, UK CAA issued PPL A pilots can now fly EI-reg'd 3-axis microlights in Irish airspace...!
I presume you are referring to Aeronutical Notice P21 issued on May 25th 2012? You are correct however the notice clearly states it is to facilitate visiting pilots and aircraft and not permitted for pilots resident in the state. Therefore, if WingCommander is resident here he is not covered by this notice.

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Mark
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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by libertyxl2flyer » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:47 pm

mark wrote: --------On a separate note which may be useful to know for UK licence holders flying in Ireland. After November 17th 2012 if you renew your SEP rating in Ireland you will no longer be able to get an Irish examiner to sign your licence. You will need a UK examiner to sign the licence. Irish examiners may be permitted to sign the licence if they complete a "briefing" from the competent authority (in this case the CAA) but given the costs involved I can't see many examiners doing that.

Hope I haven't confused you too much but this is going to be a serious headache for pilots next April.

Regards,
Mark
Mark just a quick question on this, so what do you suspect CAA licence holders will have to do, is it going to have to be a case of a trip accross the border or indeed the pond or will you be able to get someone like the iaa to sign the licence or send off your licence to the caa for an examiner to sign ?

cheers
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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by WingCommander » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:55 pm

Hi Guys,

Thanks a mill for the replys. Following on from your post mark I posed the question to the IAA of what would be best for me to do. The advice they gave me was to convert my CAA PPL A to an IAA PPL A as they now believe that anyone holding a IAA PPL A with a microlight rating will be allowed to retain their rating on an EASA licence as the rating in now going to be an Annex 2 to the EASA licence. However I run into another problem if I convert my license, that problem is that I hold an FAA PPL A on the back of the CAA PPL A so if I convert I loose the FAA PPL!!

Not sure what to do.

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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by hugoj_air » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:59 am

Bloody hell, I think I'll stick to driving cars. And to think 20 years ago you could fly a microlight without a licence. I know flying HAS to be regulated and training is absolutely vital, but they have gone from one daft extream (no licence) to the other, total bureaucracy!!.

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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by mark » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:56 pm

libertyxl2flyer wrote:
Mark just a quick question on this, so what do you suspect CAA licence holders will have to do, is it going to have to be a case of a trip accross the border or indeed the pond or will you be able to get someone like the iaa to sign the licence or send off your licence to the caa for an examiner to sign ?

cheers
Hi libertyxl2flyer,

I suspect that there will be a few CAA examiners floating about the country that would be allowed to sign the licences. Failing that, there is an option for Irish examiners to receive a "Briefing" from the CAA (details at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_lts_Br ... Sept12.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and this will allow Irish Examiners to sign CAA issued EASA licences. But as you will read, this needs to be repeated every 3 years (at a cost) so I can't see too many examiners going down that route.

The CAA document above only refers to the conducting of tests / checks. My understanding is that examiners can't make an entry on a licence issued by a country different to their licence (i.e. Irish licence / Irish examiner or UK licence / UK examiner) but I can't find an exact reference to this, can anyone confirm?
hugoj_air wrote: Bloody hell, I think I'll stick to driving cars. And to think 20 years ago you could fly a microlight without a licence. I know flying HAS to be regulated and training is absolutely vital, but they have gone from one daft extream (no licence) to the other, total bureaucracy!!.
I agree! But there's no point in complaining about it now. The time to do something about it was 3 years ago when these changes were being proposed. A classic example of why pilots should join a representative organisation so they can lobby on your behalf: NMAI, ILAS, AOPA etc.

National Microlight Association of Ireland http://www.nmai.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Irish Light Aviation Society http://www.ilas.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
AOPA Ireland or UK http://www.aopaireland.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or http://www.aopa.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by hugoj_air » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:06 pm

Not complaining Mark, just shocked at how the whole licencing system has gone. Not being a pilot myself I haven't kept up to speed with all the changes over the last few years. It's only when you see it in black and white that you realise what a confused minefield it has all become.

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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by mark » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:10 pm

Sorry Hugo, I never meant to imply you were complaining.

I was just using it as an opportunity to promote the representative organisations that do a lot of work in this area often with little thanks. It's time people joined up and showed some support for General Aviation in this country.
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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by buggyB » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:35 am

There seems to be a different interpretation of the rules between the IAA and CAA, and possibly everyone else. The CAA seem to have taken the line that you need an EASA licence to fly an EASA aircraft. As Mark mentioned the the IAA seem to view things as
...an EASA licence can only be used to fly an EASA aircraft
(Note that an EASA type is still an EASA aircraft even when registered outside the EU, not just EI,G reg aircraft etc, this applies to anything that flys which would need an EASA CofA if it was based here).

The difference being that the CAA have chosen to also recognise your EASA Part FCL licence as valid in order to fly non-EASA aircraft (Annex II), but only within UK airspace. Some info
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid ... geid=11675

The IAA say you will need a national licence to fly Annex II in Irish airspace but also say that they wont allow Irish residents to own and operate foreign registered Annex II aircraft here long term.

Therefore to fly my Permit aircraft in the UK I need do nothing. But only in the UK. To own and operate my Permit aircraft in Ireland I now need to re-reg the aircraft to EI and also get an IAA national licence based on my EASA one. And I may or may not have to undertake a course to cover 3-axis - hopefully not as it's Group A. Even if I did I would have to do it on a different type with much different handling characteristics and performance. Madness!.

And the question I have not yet heard asked or answered: Can you use hours flown on a non-EASA aircraft in order to revalidate an EASA Part FCL SEP rating? And if I can revalidate my SEP in this fashion will the IAA then accept it in order to revalidate the rating on the IAA national licence, or do I have to get 2 examiners (CAA and IAA) to sign off on 2 separate revalidations.

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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by WingCommander » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:52 am

Hi buggyB

I specifically asked the IAA your last question and they have said that they now believe that agreement has been reached that any hours flown in 3-axis non EASA Annex II aircrafts will be allowed to count towards revalidating an SEP. They believe it will be all hours and not a percentage. Great if it happens. It means all of us will be flying permit aircrafts soon and enjoying the cheaper flying costs!!

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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by hugoj_air » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:13 pm

Hi Mark,

No apology necessary, slightly crossed wires. I fully endorse what you say about all of us showing support for Irish General Aviation through our different groups. Perhaps some work is on going in the background to do just that. It's very badly needed.
To unknowlagable me looking on from the sidelines--the EU produce's new legislation regarding PPL(A)/PPL(M) licences. Then each member state gives their " interpretation" which seem's to cause confusion between licence holders from different states, to the point where no one knows for sure, what, if any aircraft type they can legally fly in states other than their own and when they ask for clarification, either none is forthcomming or it only adds to the confusion.
Perhaps that's too simplistic, but if it's not then I have only one question. WHY ON EARTH WAS IT ALLOWED TO GET TO THIS REDICULIOUS SITUATION!!. Please note I'm not looking for explanations, just totally shocked the see such a seamingly simple system destroyed by self interested idiots.

Hugo.
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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by jonkil » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:44 pm

hugoj_air wrote:And to think 20 years ago you could fly a microlight without a licence.

Hugo.
Still can Hugo :lol: .... and all this licensing crap will lead to just that !

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Re: CAA PPL (A) & Microlights

Post by buggyB » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:52 pm

WingCommander wrote:Hi buggyB

I specifically asked the IAA your last question and they have said that they now believe that agreement has been reached that any hours flown in 3-axis non EASA Annex II aircrafts will be allowed to count towards revalidating an SEP. They believe it will be all hours and not a percentage. Great if it happens. It means all of us will be flying permit aircrafts soon and enjoying the cheaper flying costs!!
Thanks for that WingCommander. I suppose if you don't ask...
If LAPL is implemented with a bit of thought and co-operation amongst the member states then it might become what the PPL should have been. EASA was a noble idea but has inadvertently priced the the spam side of GA beyond the average Joe with Part M and now Part FCL. If LAPL is done right then AnnexII will become very big very quickly. Look at how Sport pilot licences and LSAs have taken off (literally) in the US, and they haven't even hit the core PPL holders. The FAA have just made the whole thing more accessible and inclusive. EASA seems more exclusive and difficult to deal with.

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