IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

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IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by mark » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:47 am

Hi guys,

I’m surprised no one has mentioned this here yet but just before Christmas the IAA came out with Advisorary Memorandum 02-11. This effectively bans Irish based foreign registered homebuilts and classic aircraft from flying in this country.

I’d love to hear how the IAA can justify this and what the decision is based on. Why do it now? What has changed to make this happen? To me it looks like:

(i) a money making exercise
(ii) certain individuals / departments in the IAA creating jobs for themselves to justify their existence

Looking back over the last number of years I have seen more and more obstacles put in our way by the IAA. Where will it stop? When all of us lock our aircraft up and don’t fly again due to the red tape?

What exactly is wrong with flying a G- registered permit aircraft in this country? Is the CAA system deficient is some way? Is it unsafe in the eyes of the IAA? I doubt it. The LAA who administer the homebuilt system in the UK are a very professional organisation, is the IAA doubting their integrity to issue permits?

I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this, especially if you’re affected by it. While I haven’t worked out exactly how many aircraft are affected it looks like it is a significant percentage given the size of the Irish GA fleet.

Regards,
Mark


P.S. This is in no way a dig at the ILAS who I know do an excellent job – it’s purely about the IAA over regulating GA in this country – and to be honest, I’m getting sick of it.

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by trimflyingclub » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:44 pm

Have heard some horror stories of impact to the general GA scene as we know it.
Thanks for posting!


TFC

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by Fanstop » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:01 pm

they do not need a reason the IAA have always been unanswerable to anyone and they play the safety card to ward off any opposition.
it would seem to me that 'banning' foreigh registered aircraft is ultra vires their powers and against all EU treaties where the free movement of citizens and capital is central. see them in court if necessary. i would have thought that AOPA would be all over this one..............and the IAA were meant to get cosy with GA recently!

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by Sierra Papa » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:14 pm

Hi Mark,

It's a difficult one. Personally I'm not effected by this as at the moment I operate an Irish Reg CofA aircraft. But a very good friend of mine whom I was recently helping to put his paperwork in order is faced with this, and we hit a brick wall with the insurance company. On his LAA permit to fly, if one looks closely, actualy sais that it is valid only in the State of Registration, in his case G-Reg, it looks like the regulation was always there but it wasn't enforced??? But when we had a close look at his insurance cert, it stated geographical limits as UK only. I had a look at my own insurance cert just to compare, it also has certain geographical limits but much broader - so no issue there. We are now in limbo with this. But as I wouldn't worry to much about the IAA, if one has a misshap and does some damage to persons or property it can be expensive if the insurance conditions are not adheered to.
Thanks for underlining this problem.

Regards S.P.

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by stovepipe » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:29 pm

Hi there
We in ILAS are attempting to deal with this, but it appears that the IAA are not for turning on this one. Apart from that, it also has implications for aircraft registered in either country crossing the border. Point to note, too, is that the CAA have already been doing this for years in the UK, anyway. They are very intolerant of foreign reg'd aircraft and from what we hear, this is driven by EASA. We shall have to wait and see how rigidly they enforce it. I wonder if any millionaires will have to reregister their jets?

regards
Stovepipe

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by Sierra Papa » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:11 pm

Hi,

I don't think any millioners jets and similar will be effected as we speak about "permit to fly aircraft", I think???. At the moment there seems to be more questions than answers.

S.P.

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by fast oiseau » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:38 pm

How will this ruling apply in border areas?
For example,there are numerous parts of the Republic that are within the Scottish FIR and ,vice versa,parts of Northern Ireland(UK) within the Shannon FIR.Will flying a UK registered permit aircraft near Monaghan town be legal as that area is within the Scottish FIR?
Will an Irish registered permit aircraft pilot be committing an offence if he flys near Monaghan without first having sought permission to do so from the CAA?
There is a chap whose farm is right on the border and every time he does a circuit he crosses the border twice.Once on the downwind leg and again on short finals.Will he need to notify the IAA and CAA every time he does a circuit?
Baffled Oiseau

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by jonkil » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:57 pm

fast oiseau wrote:How will this ruling apply in border areas?
For example,there are numerous parts of the Republic that are within the Scottish FIR and ,vice versa,parts of Northern Ireland(UK) within the Shannon FIR.Will flying a UK registered permit aircraft near Monaghan town be legal as that area is within the Scottish FIR?
Will an Irish registered permit aircraft pilot be committing an offence if he flys near Monaghan without first having sought permission to do so from the CAA?
There is a chap whose farm is right on the border and every time he does a circuit he crosses the border twice.Once on the downwind leg and again on short finals.Will he need to notify the IAA and CAA every time he does a circuit?
Baffled Oiseau
Wont/dont get to concerned about it Oiseau, those muppets know nothing about flying, they have to attempt to justify their existence.
Keep her lit.

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by stovepipe » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:57 am

@SP, I'm perfectly aware of the difference. I'd just prefer if the rules were applied equally, that's all. The IAA are not the only offenders when it comes to light aircraft. A lot of the European countries will only allow classics and homebuilts and microlights to operate, if at all, under rigid conditions. We enjoy quite a bit of liberty to operate the aforementioned types. What annoys me about this piece of legislation is that it appears not to have been thought thru, fully, especially given our Border with Norn Iron, which suggests to me that the IAA and CAA will have to get their heads together and come up with a suitable local arrangement.It also annoys me that the IAA have gone for the expensive default setting of "do what Europe sez" and pay Eu70 for 28 days permission, instead of telling EASA to eff off and come up with something useful for GA, instead of punishing people.

regards
Stovepipe

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by Fanstop » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:21 am

as i said before lads this 'ban' on foreign aircraft is not compliant with EU free movement rules. if your microlight is allowed to operate in any EU country then the powers that be cant stop you. that is the law lads and the IAA cant ignore EU treaties. take the case of a car or HGV if they are permitted to operate under UK rules in the UK then the irish must allow them here. it is as simple as that and by the way the €70 for 28 days permission is also not permitted on the same basis. please do not mix up the insurance issue either (a great favourite of the authorities to scare the little people) just phone the insurance company and check the territory rules and if necessary change to EU wide it should have no effect on the premium.
so just ignore them and see them in Court in court. Maybe AOPA could help here.
p.s. if the IAA want to attend your fly in why not impose a 28 day prior permission rule and a €70 fee !!!

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by stovepipe » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:53 pm

I'd imagine the IAA will say that movement is not restricted, it's permanent residency that matters.They don't see why an aircraft that is a permanent resident here does not take up Irish registry.Which is the same line of thought used by the CAA and other Registers in Europe.As for the 70 euros charge, it would take a lot of time, money and effort to get that rescinded and the IAA have a long history of refusing to lower charges that the "users" find excessive.They could just as easily jack it up and there's damn all you can do about it.

regards
Stovepipe

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by cubpilot » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:25 pm

The regulation is more or less as it has been for some time but what is crazy is the fee to request permission. As soon as this fee is heard about in UK, Ireland can say goodbye to the income generated by Uk and other European pilots with permit planes coming over to tour, or they will come but take a chance that the enforcers will not be out and about. who is going to add that cost for what is just a rubber stamping process when they can tour elsewhere.
The CAA went down this road a year or two back until there was a right outcry from LAA and aviation mags about it. They back pedalled and and now just have a self declaratiion by email to be completed and a notice to say the documents that must be with the plane that a CAA officer can inspect on demand.

For long term residence of a non national permit plane is possible in other EU countries provided that the authorities are notified and permission given. I do not know if there are charges for this or not but there are many examples of this in UK and elsewhere. The only caveate for an owner is that the permit valididty must not expire as it then is not legal for it to be flown on flight test conditions for permit renewals.

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by pensive » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:23 am

I guess the G-Reg Hunter (Ex Mil so CAA Permit To Fly Aircraft) for the Bray airshow may be in doubt then....

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Re: IAA Ban Foreign registered homebuilts and classics

Post by glazz » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:17 pm

Here we go again, will Ireland, no ,the dimwits in charge never learn? did you see MOL on TV recently, basically he said you are killing the goose that lays the golden egg i.e making one of your prime earners more expensive -TOURISM. Not that I agree with all he has to say but he is obviously a shrewd man so maybe you should listen. I spend a lot of time in Ireland but am I going to pay 70 bucks for the privilage plus beer and food that would make some Londoners weep, the answer is no, they can whistle for the money. E70 for a drop of ink on a piece of paper applied by a overpaid and probably under sexed individual desparate to keep his/her job--must not be sexist--no way.

Guys and dolls rattle your TD's --when in a hole stop digging. Ireland has what 4.5 million souls and five international airports mostly supported by the tax payer. Thats less than 1 million per airport, on that basis the UK should have around 65 international airports, there are around 16--QED--thats where the maths don't add up

Still I will be there for the rugby international--may the best team win

Those that need to keep your heads below the parapet, plead ignorant
m d evans

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