English Language Proficiency

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shrtfld
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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by shrtfld » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:52 pm

Regardless of the whys and wherefores, Limerick Flying Club has bitten the bullet and dealt with the issue head-on thanks to CFI Brendan Beegan who put a plan together.

On behalf of all the guys and gals at Coonagh I extend a sincere thank you to Angelo Cunningham who has over the past two days graduated nearly three dozen of our members to ELP Level 6. The test was very interesting and no one had a problem with it.

Now to get back to flying..............! Weather permitting!
Shrtfld

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by Carrier Pigeon » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:30 am

Are you all aware that the FAA ruled that anyone who had passed a Check Flight i.e. obtained an FAA PPL had by default proven their ability to speak the English language proficiently. End of problem.

So much for AOPA in Europe.

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by buggyB » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:40 pm

For those of us flying on a UK issued JAR licence, a nice lady in the Licencing Department of the CAA has told me today that they have decided to extend the deadline for the expiry of the current Level 4 ratings (which were automatically issued on the basis of a valid FRTOL) by another year,lapsing now in March 2012. This is the first time I have heard about this and when I tried to search the CAA website for confirmation I could not find anything. Being somewhat sceptical I will ring them again this week and try to talk to their ELP expert who is currently on leave. If I get an update I will post it here.

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EASA - We don't want to over-regulate... but....

Post by hum » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:21 pm

FAA ELP - $2

IAA ELP Eu120

priceless

:roll:

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by Carrier Pigeon » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:13 pm

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificate ... oficiency/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Quote from FAA website:
'Effective March 5, 2008, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) requires the following certificate holders who operate internationally to have a certificate stating that the holder is proficient in the use of the English language'
Therefore those Pilots who operate within the USA do not need to do anything.
And those that operate internationally, just need to log onto to the FAA website, request a replacement Licence with a new endorsement and pay your $2.00.

As per usual the IAA act in a zealous manner and do not apply the rules correctly and as usual screw the punter. Good ole crony & quango ridden Rip Off Ireland.

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by Fanstop » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:16 pm

Nice one CP
as i said before ignore the crap. all my permits are in the Queens finest and i will not forget sometine in early March. i will have no difficulty explaining it to the Judge if necessary and in English .....................maybe some others will one day find a spine to shiver down.

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by jonkil » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:41 pm

Fanstop wrote:Nice one CP
as i said before ignore the crap. all my permits are in the Queens finest and i will not forget sometine in early March. i will have no difficulty explaining it to the Judge if necessary and in English .....................maybe some others will one day find a spine to shiver down.
Too right, this country is about to regulate itself out of existence with red tape crap & bureaucracy administrated for the sake of it, both in this and in business matters.......stand up and be counted.

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by neilr » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:28 pm

In relation to new students entering the system, who require a student license before going solo - this is posted on the IAA website - they will now have to arrange a test with an examiner before application

"The ELP test arrangement is also extended to applicants for the Student Pilot Licence as a combined ELP / Radiotelephony test. Students must now complete this test before entering their application for the Student Pilot Licence."

Surely going forward we could have a better and SIMPLER system in place - for example, please explain to me why a qualified flight instructor cannot assess a student english language competency through the course of his training or if a formal test is still required the school should be able to test its own students.

If I am licensed to assess a students ability to fly an aircraft solo for the first time you can be sure I have assessed his ability to understand and to be understood !!

We may be stuck with the current system we have now due to the imposed deadline - but after that we have an opportunity to fix it going forward !!!

Neil

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by Carrier Pigeon » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:09 pm

There is a major structural problem in the IAA starting at the top.
The top man is a political crony, a brother of a late FF Minister.
Therefore he knows he can't rock the boat if a member of staff is acting the b.
During the last 14 years of FF, any member of the public contacting a politician with a complaint would be cut off at the first 'pass'.
The staff are Servants of the Public, therefore they can't be sacked.
Aviation by definition is a complicated business, therefore turning to politicians is a waste of time unless that person is involved in aviation and understands the systems.
The FCL section is populated by Zealots who have but one agenda i.e. Make life as difficult as possible for
anyone daring to want to fly in Ireland.

The only hope we have is that the country gets into such a financial mess that this quango is consigned lock stock and barrel to the landfill or better still the incinerator and the responsibility returned to the Dept of Transport.

Actually there is one more option:
Everyone should obtain licences in another European country or USA and in so doing make the IAA FCL section redundant.

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IAA structural...

Post by hum » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:46 pm

Actually in my opinion its not all that bad; I have found most staff helpful and accommodating; there will always be plus's and minus's when one compares national systems... The head man here has a PPL, and has intervened on a number of recent occasions to the benefit of Irish GA and the IAA's image in my opinion.

Its interesting to compare things with our near neighbours... I remember when leaving the RAF and renewing my PPL having to do an RT exam - a full blown affair in a certified RT simulator with a CAA-appointed RT examiner - despite having flown as a professional pilot in the RAF for almost 20 years... Here in Ireland I notice that no such test exists (perhaps the combined ELP/RT 'test' is not a bad thing... ). On the other hand, one can sit PPL exams administered in a flying club in the UK or NI whereas here they have to be done in the Gresham... Another example, If I was to do CPL exams in the UK at the time I would not have had any credits whereas here I was given some exemptions...

It would be nice to 'cherry pick' all the best bits from an individual's point of view, however, that would be utopia (or maybe the FAA system :lol: )

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by neilr » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:57 pm

Hi Gerry

Whatever about the ELP, you do make a good point about the RT license requirement in the UK - I went through this system, where there was both a written and an oral exam .... and I actually do believe we should have an oral exam here in Ireland to ensure a reasonable level of competency on the radio - I have heard some terrible examples of RT on 127.5 !!!

Howvere I still think it could be administered at a school level, even if we have to invest in some equipment for the test.... and we could throw in a combined the ELP for free

Neil

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by Carrier Pigeon » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:57 pm

Again with the FAA, during your training for a PPL you are being taught to fly and using the radio at the same time. Having passed your check flight you are presented with a PPL which includes an RT qualification. (i.e.There isn't any specific questioning on RT)
And guess what? The Irish, UK & all other European CAAs recognise the FAA RT qualification.

So just like the ELP test, if the largest Aviation Nation in the world can accept that it is basic common sense that the person who is being taught to fly using the English Language and the radio and has passed his check flight, is now by definition, proficient in both, then a tiny weeny bit of rock on the edge of a small continent called Europe should be able to see it's way to follow suit.

Also,
It is not legal for any European CAA to demand all Pilots to undertake an ELP test. It is only those who operate internationally who require this.
Last edited by Carrier Pigeon on Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by jonkil » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:51 pm

Carrier Pigeon wrote:So just like the ELP test, if the largest Aviation Nation in the world can accept that it is basic common sense that the person who is being taught to fly using the English Language while using the radio in the process and has now passed his check flight is now by definition, proficient in both then a tiny little bit of rock on the edge of a small little continent called Europe should be able to see it's way to follow suit.
That's the crux. Mandatory radio training isn't a problem, while during your ppl training or as a stand alone module later on.
Some of the standard of radio work leaves a lot to be desired as many of us know. I myself sat the RT course in Aldrogrove some years ago and it is without doubt a very worthwhile exercise and "learns" you proper procedure and most of all learns you what NOT to say ! I hold the UK CAA RT licence and I have flown through complex airspace both in the UK and Europe without hassle, been granted military transits and no doubt this has been achieved by having the proper radio protocol and forward planning.
But to ask someone to have an ELP who already has an RT qualification in English, when their mother tongue is English is simply taking the complete piss and a complete bureaucratic paper pushing exercise that makes absolutely no sense at all and typical of civil servant mentality.

Sorry "rant over"

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by Carrier Pigeon » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:15 pm

Jon,
I disagree with your analysis of RT learning. If your instructor can't teach you RT then he shouldn't be an instructor.
Again, I have to ask: How come the largest aviation country in the world can have tens of thousands of pilots trained to use the radio while learning to fly? Are you suggesting that they don't have to fly through complex airspace? Are you saying that they don't have military zones? Please Jon, get a grip of yourself. Every pilot in Ireland should take a holiday of at least 3 weeks in the USA and fly around the whole country. I can guarantee that when you come back here you will either start a revolt or failing that fall into a deep state of depression.

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Re: English Language Proficiency

Post by jonkil » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:22 pm

Carrier Pigeon wrote:Jon,
I disagree with your analysis of RT learning. If your instructor can't teach you RT then he shouldn't be an instructor.
Again, I have to ask: How come the largest aviation country in the world can have tens of thousands of pilots trained to use the radio while learning to fly? Are you suggesting that they don't have to fly through complex airspace? Are you saying that they don't have military zones? Please Jon, get a grip of yourself. Every pilot in Ireland should take a holiday of at least 3 weeks in the USA and fly around the whole country. I can guarantee that when you come back here you will either start a revolt or failing that fall into a deep state of depression.
Not saying that at all, and yes agreed that instructors should be able to access your RT ability or otherwise.
What I am saying is that formal RT training is fine, its the premise by the powers that be that we cant bloody speak English when English is our mother tongue, we were taught to fly and use a radio in English and our bloody licences are issued in English and everything we do regarding aviation is based on the English medium. Yet powers that be are saying "we better check if these people can speak ENGLISH" !.... or are they using it as an excuse to pry more € out of us?

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