Bettystown Crash

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Francie81
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Bettystown Crash

Post by Francie81 » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:45 pm

Just seen the clip on youtube and my word what was the pilot thinking of? It clearly shows the tale rotor hitting a pole in the car park, it really says alot about Aviation Regulations in Ireland, automatic sack or stripped of license no matter what the outcome of the investigation is.

ifty
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Re: Bettystown Crash

Post by ifty » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:52 pm

Francie81 wrote:Just seen the clip on youtube and my word what was the pilot thinking of? It clearly shows the tale rotor hitting a pole in the car park, it really says alot about Aviation Regulations in Ireland, automatic sack or stripped of license no matter what the outcome of the investigation is.


why? what if he had engine trouble and had no other option but to go down there. I would not be too quick to say a statement like that it could be you it happens to next.

See this thread
You pass this way but once, there is no such thing as normal. There is you and the rest, now and forever. Do as you damn well please or you could end up being a pot-bellied, hairless boring old fart.

Francie81
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Post by Francie81 » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:08 am

Yeah but just look how it happened and miraculesly not one injured. All am saying is their is more to how that happened and why would he land in a car park if he thought he's engine trouble of all places, when you have a two mile coast line at the back that seemed a more obvious option to land?

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Post by ifty » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:14 am

Francie81 wrote:Yeah but just look how it happened and miraculesly not one injured. All am saying is their is more to how that happened and why would he land in a car park if he thought he's engine trouble of all places, when you have a two mile coast line at the back that seemed a more obvious option to land?


I believe (not being a helo type) that when it starts to go wrong you NEED to put it down no questions. Yes miraculously no one was hurt but your point is? Probably there is more to it just dont judge too quickly I have seen accidents happen and its not nice.
You pass this way but once, there is no such thing as normal. There is you and the rest, now and forever. Do as you damn well please or you could end up being a pot-bellied, hairless boring old fart.

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Post by 900EX » Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:46 am

I would also question the pilots decision making. Operating a large helicopter in close proximity to buildings is poor airmanship if it is not actually necessary. Clearly an emergency situation such as auto rotation could have been conducted to the beach area had the helicopter been at a safe altitude passing over those buildings. Thank god no children were hurt.

The sad outcome is that more regulation will follow due to accidents like this.
Celer fuga....

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Post by TrickyDicky » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:58 am

There will be no more regulation from this accident. The regulations that cover this area are clear and concise, you cant regulate a pilot that decides to ignore them.
For helicopter operations in a hostile (congested, built up) area a Class 1 twin engine aircraft is required but it also requires an area large enough to perform single engine landings and aborted take offs. A rough area for an S76 Class 1 landing area would be about twice its maximum dimension. i.e 2*16m (32m), or 2.5 times its rotor diameter 2.5*13.42 (33.5m).
This area appears to have been less then half that size. This should have been clearly evident to the pilot even in a circuit to check the area.
Even if the later descent from the hover was uncontrolled due to an engine failure the pilot is at fault, he should never have been there.

At the end of the day I am glad the pilot and all the locals are ok, thats the most important thing. The pilot will have to live with the mistake hes made which could be hard without a license but at least he didnt kill anybody. The rest of the helicopter community will have to live with the portrayal of heli ops as a potential public killer by an already irrate anti helicopter lobby.

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Post by ifty » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:58 am

No one knows the full story here, NO ONE should be jumping to conclusions and saying the pilot is at fault etc etc. The only person that knows the full facts are the pilot, not arm chairs commentators, me or you. So to lay blame on anyone at this stage is counter productive. I have seen people killed and then lambasted by people for making the wrong descision, as I said earlier it could be you next.
You pass this way but once, there is no such thing as normal. There is you and the rest, now and forever. Do as you damn well please or you could end up being a pot-bellied, hairless boring old fart.

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Post by TrickyDicky » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:09 am

Correct and right, it could be me next and if I decide to take an aircraft into an area like that, wheater there is a subsequent accident or not, and needlessly endanger peoples lives I would quite rightly expect a lambasting. :(

ifty
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Post by ifty » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:41 am

exactly so but do you know what happened just after he lifted off (the beach) or not? If no then no one is in a position to criticise UNTIL the facts are there. Then if he was showboating or whatever he should get a kick in the spuds until that point though no one should be too quick to judge
You pass this way but once, there is no such thing as normal. There is you and the rest, now and forever. Do as you damn well please or you could end up being a pot-bellied, hairless boring old fart.

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Post by Francie81 » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:52 am

900EX wrote:I would also question the pilots decision making. Operating a large helicopter in close proximity to buildings is poor airmanship if it is not actually necessary. Clearly an emergency situation such as auto rotation could have been conducted to the beach area had the helicopter been at a safe altitude passing over those buildings. Thank god no children were hurt.

The sad outcome is that more regulation will follow due to accidents like this.


You hit the nail on the head. Am going to train as a pilot but not for helicopter cos I don't like them and think they are too dangerous, why are they so expensive when you see this happening surely thats 200K down the drain?

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Post by TrickyDicky » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:44 am

We dont need to know what happened during the departure from the beach.
If this incident is related to that departure he should have flown a profile that allowed a return to his departure point and not a crash into a built up area.
Or if this was an approach to the area as already stated he had no business being there. Either way even if there was engine failure it is irrelivent to the final location of the aircraft, that is purely down to the pilot either making a ridiculous departure across a built up area despite being on a wide open beach or making an approach to a wholey unsuitable area, you choose.
Engine failures happen (if thats what happened here), thats life. Its the pilots job to foresee that circumstance and negate the risk during critical phases of flight. He didnt.

Put it this way, would you sympathise with a fixed wing pilot who lands on a runway too short for the approach type being performed, overruns and lands into houses in a town. I wouldnt.

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Post by choppersquad » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:52 pm

tricky
I find it hard to handle, that you are putting this pilot down before the report comes out.If you know this landing site in detail ok, but as we have heard so much unconfirmed info on what happened are you sure your comments are so correct ?.

choppersquad.

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Post by N714GZ » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:25 am

Correct me if I'm wrong but an S76B is a performance Class 1 helicopter and even IF it had an engine failure, it should have been able to climb away on a single engine.

The video does show the aircraft in what appears to be sustained hover and not an autorotation type flare before impact.

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Post by TrickyDicky » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:30 pm

Hi Chopper Squad,
Perhaps your right. Lets wait for the report.

Its just that while I dont personnally know the landing site, despite many overhead photos in the press, I shouldnt have to. I cannot understand how a Class 1 helicopter flying to a suitable class 1 sized landing site can miss it so badly with or without a failure. Thats the basics of class 1 operations.

N714GZ,
You are half correct. During a class 1 approach there is a Landing Decision Point (LDP). If a failure happens before LDP the aircraft can fly away but this may include the aircraft descending to a min height of 35ft over the landing area before having sufficent speed to climb. Hence the problem with obstacles close to the landing area that are higher the 35 ft.
After LDP the pilot is commited to making a safe landing on the intended landing area. The S76 manual would give a minimum sized area for this kind of operation but an IAA reccomendation (OAMs) is 2* overall length or 2.5* rotor diameter. This increased size allows some latitude for the average non test pilot to have everyday variations in the approach.

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Post by Bladecrack » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:12 pm

Am going to train as a pilot but not for helicopter cos I don't like them and think they are too dangerous, why are they so expensive when you see this happening surely thats 200K down the drain
?

Francie81, lets look at the recent statistics:

1. 14/09/08 Aeorflot B737 crash in Russia 88 fatalities
2. 24/08/08 Aseman Airlines B737 in Kyrgyzstan 68 fatalaties
3. 20/08/08 Spanair MD82 in Madrid 154 fatalities

19/09/08 S76 crash in Bettystown - certainly a very bad accident but no fatalities.

I could go on, but where is your evidence to back up your statement that helicopters are more dangerous than other forms of air travel?

BC

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