50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

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inverted
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50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by inverted »

Ok, Heres a shot in the dark.

How much have you paid in the past for a 50/100hr or CofA and where.

Theres no hidden agenda here whatsoever, I'm just trying to budget a cost per hour for maintenance into the cost of flying.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Inverted.

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aviatorsguide
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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by aviatorsguide »

Not qualified to answer EASA questions, but an N reg annual is €400 pa for a fixed gear inspection. Labour rates for A&P's to perform the maintenance tasks vary from £20 in IOM to €55+ ph here. If you look at labour rates charged by franchised car garages I guess the rates are fair.

In terms of EASA registered aircraft, the best value maintence I believe, is from NFC in Weston. They have the fleet of aircraft to justify a decent setup, they fly thier own work, and I know lots of people have been simply taken back with the cost savings from switching to NFC. There is nobody else in Ireland with the hours under thier belt that NFC and Kieran have in operating light aircraft in Ireland, so hats off to them. 8)

over....

William

StrikeCommand
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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by StrikeCommand »

The approved maintenance organisations will tell you their rates for 50 hr checks etc - some of them have it on their websites.
E.g 50 hr check is usually between €500 and €600.
Annual - basic fee is €2000 but parts and labour are added to that, so the total cost depends on what items are found in need of replacement etc. and that could easily end up being €3000. "Worn" or "in need of replacement" can be subjective terms. Also the annual involves a complete strip down of the a/c and all new nuts, bolts, washers, split pins, screws, gaskets etc are used when re-assembling it, so all those small components add up. ARC renewal is usually done at same time as the Annual and is not charged for separately. However having said that, I received a marketing flyer in the post from one AMO recently which quoted €1100 for the Annual and €500 for the ARC renewal and €400 for the 50 hr check. The Annual includes the items of a 50 hr check anyway. This all relates to a light single piston engined aircraft of course. I assume they took my name & address from the IAA register.
If it's an EI reg a/c then there must be a Maintenance Programme Light Aircraft in place for it . The AMO will manage the maintenance of your a/c on your behalf and it involves a contract between the AMO and the a/c owner - to ensure a "continuing airworthiness environment". Developing the documentation for the MPLA involves cost as they have to have the manufacturers maintenance manuals etc so each time they take on a new a/c type, a new set of documentation has to be developed. I think most AMO's will not charge you for the management of your a/c maintenance and the MPLA once you stay with them for the Annual, 50 hr checks etc.. In theory you could draw up the MPLA yourself and submit it to the IAA for approval but I doubt you would get it right first time and I wouldn't recommend it! The contract has a section where "Pilot/owner approved maintenance tasks" are listed - but this may (and rightly should, in my opinion) say "none".
I recommend you talk to Mr.James Flynn in ATSI at Waterford Airport. :)

inverted
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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by inverted »

Cheer for that Strike. Highly Informative, Thank you !

Its all seems a little excessive to be honest, like what exactly to you get for your 2K if parts and labour are added on ?
I'm just afraid that I'll get stung by not adding on the correct amount of €/hr on my flying and be left with a whopping great bill for " bits and pieces".
Are these thoughts/theories completly unfounded or has anyone here got genuine horror stories of maintenance bills going horribly wrong ?

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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by stovepipe »

I'd definitely question that, for an Annual. If parts and labour are extra, what's the 2K for? Reading logbooks? I'd have to take my aircraft elsewhere unless he cut that down severely or gave me a damn good reason for it.
it's no wonder fellas are going to Permit aircraft!
regards
Stovepipe

inverted
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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by inverted »

Is it just me or is there ZERO transparency in the pricing of aircraft maintenance in Ireland.
From an outsiders perspective the whole maintenance issue appears to be a black art with figures being plucked out of the air with people getting whopping big bills and saying nothing about them.
Surely in the current economic climate, in the majority of maintenance organisations should be actively promoting their services beginning with the open and transparent issue of pricing which should be clear and available for prospective customers to see.
Am I being totally irrational that I find it unusual that this is not the case?

Is there any way that one could establish a kind of a "rate my maintence organisation" based on costs etc - ?

StrikeCommand
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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by StrikeCommand »

Inverted, when leaving your aircraft with the maintenance organisation, you have to make it clear to them that nothing is replaced etc without first pricing it and second getting your agreement/approval. The big bills arise when the person carrying out the inspection draws up a list of items to replace. Some items may be genuine airworthiness issues and if so, one doesn't have to think twice about agreeing them. Other items may be more subjective. Unless there are definite, quantifiable limits set down by the airframe or engine manufacturer, the degree of wear on a component can be debateable. You would need to ask: does this need to be done from a safety/airworthiness point of view or can it be deferred? You are also entitled to get a breakdown of the bill and normally they will give you the worksheet with details of parts and time spent on each item. It's always a good idea to go through that and make sure that it makes sense - mistakes can easily be made - something can be logged twice or parts for another aircraft could have been charged up to your aircraft. E.g. if you see a reference to a constant speed unit and you have a Cessna 152, then there's something wrong!
Don't forget also that apart from scheduled checks like 50 hr etc there are Airworthiness Directives (ADs) every now and then, which must be implemented. That can be another unexpected expense. So when you are buying a second hand aircraft it is a good idea to check and see if all the ADs have been complied with.
The amount of care and attention that the owner/operator gives the aircraft between scheduled maintenance has a bearing on the costs too. If you choose to leave your aluminium aircraft out in the elements and never hangar it, corrosion is going to be an even bigger problem and there will be more time spent rubbing down spot corrosion, touching up/repainting etc. Keeping the fuel tanks full helps prevent condensation/corrosion (recommended by Cessna). Regular engine ground runs during periods of low/non-use (over winter etc) also help to prevent condensation and corrosion of engine cylinders.
The whole aircraft maintenance business is a bit of a "closed shop", especially in Ireland. It's not as if you can just decide as a school leaver to do an appropriate course and get the necessary qualifications. It's a very small industry and there are very few operators so competition is limited.
However, having said that, no matter how much competition there might be, and no matter how open and transparent pricing might be made, there are still a lot of aircraft owners who just want to cut corners whenever and wherever they can and who haven't come to terms with the fact that airworthiness and safety costs money. (And by the way I'm not in the aircraft maintenance business!) :)

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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by SpamCan »

Strike,
Very good analysis and fine in theory but when your aircraft is stripped down and you are given the bad news of what requires replacement and an "ESTIMATE" of cost one has very little option but to go with what you are told is required. Too late to bring it elsewhere.
Yes everybody is looking for cheapest option, they would be foolish not to but we hear some horror stories about prices charged for maintenance €2000.00 being a small part of it.

SC

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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by dreamer1 »

StrikeCommand wrote: Regular engine ground runs during periods of low/non-use (over winter etc) also help to prevent condensation and corrosion of engine cylinders.
better off without the ground runs, flying is better or inhibit.

inverted
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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by inverted »

Guys thanks very much for all your replies, both very informative and useful however without putting too fine a point on it would it be possible that some aircraft owners would be so kind as to post there recent experiences here please ?

I dont want to know the in-and-outs of the bill but I'd be very interested to see what people are being charged - Eg - 50hr check in EIxx - cost me €750 etc......

Thanks again for all your replies !

Regards,

Inverted.
Last edited by inverted on Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

mikefox
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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by mikefox »

50 hr €589.06 jan 2001
150 hr €705.28 may 2011
annual €2300 august 2010

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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by inverted »

Cheers Mikefox.
At least we have a starting point now, Any others like to add to Mikefox's contribution ?

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Re: 50/100 Hr & CofA Rates

Post by StrikeCommand »

Inverted
I would guess that a lot of aircraft owners would be a bit reticent about how much they are spending on their maintenance etc especially at a time when things are bad in the economy and a lot of people (including those who like us put everything they have into aviation and may have no other "luxuries") are losing their jobs or taking pay cuts etc.
Stovepipe, Inverted etc - re €2000 etc
As far as I know, the €2000 is for the actual annual inspection. That involves a good bit of time to be spent stripping the a/c down, examining and reassembling it afterwards. I am guessing that 30 to 40 hours could be needed to do that properly. The purpose of an Inspection is to ascertain the condition of the a/c and then identifies actions which need to be carried out. The "Parts & Labour" bit is the cost of any new parts and the labour associated with fitting them, treating corrosion, touching up paintwork etc - they are not inspection actions but defect rectification actions. Any maintenance organisations I have ever contacted or dealt with, all charge the fee for inspection plus parts & labour. I don't think it's open to negotiation as such but as stated previously you can make it clear that your agreement must be got before they decide to replace something because very often it can be deferred if not badly worn etc.
Inverted
In effect I've already given you the figures - while it might have sounded vague, it was actually based on experience.If it's of any help to you, I kept accurate records of costs for a light single engine piston on an ARC (Irish Reg) and the breakdown last year (2010) was Fuel 35%, Maintenance 31%, Hangarage 20%,Insurance 11%, Landing Fees 3%. :D

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