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JFH
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Post by JFH »

q
Last edited by JFH on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MCRO
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Post by MCRO »

I wonder whence JFH is drawing his very interesting opinion

We had this prohibition with us at least since the 1966 Order where it was Art 4.(5)(a)

It was then Age 16 and was reduced to 15 in the current Order so as to remove the inducement to commence instruction before sunrise in order to achieve a solo flght by sundown

How can its meaning have changed in the contect that the words "Sole manipulation" are only used in connection with satisfying the 90 day rule?

Maurice

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Post by danelane2000 »

Xacto, the head of training and owner from atlantic flight training in cork, called the IAA, and they have no problems with people under the age of 15 years of age logging hours to the PPL AS LONG AS IT IS DUEL

There is nothing in the requirements that states that you have to be 15 years or older to log hours. It only states as i have said in my previous post that you SHALL be 16 years old to obtain a SPL and to fly solo. I dont really care myself because i am 15 and if the above is not true, then i am still legally able to log hours :P .

JFH, your post is correct, there is nothing stated by the IAA WHICH IS the irish aviation authority, about these age requirements, the IAA issue the licences and therefor their rules go..

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Post by Xacto »

The regulation has been written in clear English and is not open to individual interpretation. Beware of second and third hand phone calls. You may not receive instruction if you are under 15. Therefore you may only fly as a passenger. You may not handle the controls or log time as P u/t. There is no other category under which you may log time except as passenger if you so wish.


Xacto.

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Post by danelane2000 »

You may not handle the controls or log time as P u/t.


Are you a qualified instructor? that is complete nonsense, intro flights are givin control to the people, most people get intros at 13/14... I have been flying for over a year, started at 14 and logged my hours and am going to continue logging them and the ones i did when i was 14 until an authorised officer of the Irish aviation authority tells me otherwise and so should all the other young fliers on this board, not to listen to someone on a forum
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Post by Frosty »

Xacto, how can one be a pilot under training if one cannot handle the controls :?: :?
I went for my "first" "intro" flight a few months ago when I was still 14 and given the controls for virtually the whole flight. Where did you receive this fine bit of informed information?

There has been banter about this for ages with people argueing and argueing about it, without a decisive outcome. How can anyone be sure?
Do the IAA have these articles publised in a hard format or over the web? If someone knows, could they please post a link/extract on this thread.

Patrick, I wouldn't be too quick to jump at logging hours if I were under 15 just in-case. If you are say 13 and start flying and logging hours, using your thinking, and find out when you apply for the SPL/PPL that all these hours are not counted, someones going to be fairly p*s&ed. All this money could be "wasted" on nothing. Hold your fire until something official is found from the IAA that is decisive in giving a clear satisfactory answer.
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Post by MCRO »

Xacto quoted the regulation in full.

The sentence that is immediately relevant is :

"A person undergoing dual instruction for the purpose of obtaining a student pilot's licence shall be not less than 15 years of age"

This to me means that any any lesson or introductory I may give to an under-15 does not count as training experience for grant of licence and anyone offering a logbook with such experience may find himself classed as one attempting to qualify by misrepresentation

(I am now inclned to believe that intro's to under-15's, which are paid for, may only be given if the flight is specifically approved under the relevant Air Services Order)

Maurice

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Post by EIDEL »

8) One phone call? Eh! If you want to fly you will anyway and there will always be an FI to take you .Keep your hrs to a min until you are med2 and legal (if the money bothers you ) .You will not pull the wool or be shot for trying anyway your flight school will peruse your log and further your training as they see fit.Your trainers are in business to make a bob or two and will not participate in illegal activities .Enjoy your airtime and remember all experiance WILL count one way or another when you come to your flight tests.If "wasting" money bothered you ,you wouldn't fly anyway.Be lucky DEL 8)

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Post by Flyer1 »

Lads don't let this go " off topic ", let's not get into an arguement about logging hour's, just remember " young flyers " :wink:

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p

Post by JFH »

q
Last edited by JFH on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MCRO
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Post by MCRO »

This is a case where, I guess, the tag "Qui tacuit consentit" doesn't apply to IAA

The licensing would seem to be OK in that there is no min hours prescribed for SPL and TOTAL recognised hours logged at time of grant of PPL are likely have exceeded the minimum required.

If a PPL uses pre age-15 training to make up total hours for any subsequent requirement I would see him/her as decidedly off-side vis-a-vis the S.I.

In fairness I think the IAA is entitled to rely on its instructors to see that these kind of situations do not arise

Maurice

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Post by Xacto »

We're not arguing, we're debating and its's good fun.

One of the documents you will be required to be familiar with as your training progresses is the IAA Personnel Licensing Order. It can be viewed here. Click on ?Statutory Instruments 1922 ~ 2002? and click your way through to find SI 333 of 2000. ( Sorry, a direct link to the document doesn?t seem to work for some reason.)

Scroll down to article 5 paragraph 5(a). It reads;
?a person undergoing dual instruction for the purpose of obtaining a student pilot's licence shall be not less than 15 years of age and shall be not less than 16 years of age before undertaking an initial solo flight.?

I?ll repeat that again ?A PERSON UNDERGOING DUAL INSTRUCTION FOR THE PURPOSE OF OBTAINING A STUDENT PILOT?S LICENCE SHALL BE NOT LESS THAN 15 YEARS OF AGE?.?

What is so difficult to understand about this? It means that if you are less than 15 years old you may not be given dual instruction. If you are not being instructed you may not log time as Pu/t (pilot under training). There is no other category under which you may log time other than as passenger in the remarks column of your log book.

The rules are different in other countries as permitted by JAR-FCL 1.085 (a). This is the law of the land in this country. It may not be rescinded on foot of a telephone call to an individual in the IAA.

The fact that a blind eye has been turned and the law has been broken without repercussion does not change it.


The heading Mark gave to his forum reads :

?This is a forum where student pilots can post their questions for more experienced pilots to answer .?

I would estimate that Maurice and my self have some 60 years instructing experience between us including CFI time. We?re not infallible but I think we?re worth listening to occasionally. I'm sure I speak for Maurice as well when I say that we will be more than happy to help you young flyers with any question you care to post here ( provided you're polite to us :? ).

Xacto

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Post by -Al- »

While I agree with xacto and the link he posted makes sense to me.

I think you guys should actually call the IAA yourselves, to clarify, theres no point in spending 100s/1000s of euro on flying which may not be used towards your licence (although del is right aswell, that it will count in other ways).

It would be worth the phone call.
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--- "Hey there blimpy boy, flying so high and fancy free" --- Homer Simpson

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Post by MCRO »

This latest confounds me

If you read a regulation couched in the plainest language and then telephone the issuing Authority to ask if it must be observed - what does it tell them.?

That they should exercise the greatest caution in issuing any licence to such a person as there is a 'prima facie' case of complete lack of savvy.

If anyone feels they have a really compelling case for an exemption they have a perfect right to seek one under Article 36 of the Order - may they have the very best of luck with that course!

Maurice

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Post by angelshigh »

I fear this thread is getting a bit "He Said - She Said"

This will always occur when you have old heads on old bodies and young heads on young bodies tring to prove the old bodies wrong and that they are the only ones who have ever flown....

There is a wealth of experience on this site, I had had the benefit of it many times. Its not a place for oneupmanship....nor is any one trying to catch any one out.. this site is a great souce for Aviation.....and advice. Lets keep it that way :wink:

AH

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