Aer Lingus long-haul, finally some answers

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Post by VNAV PTH » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:06 pm

The Feb 16th issue of Flight International has a good 747-8 v 380 article in it. Looks at both pax and freighter versions.
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Post by dowlingm » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:42 pm

Personally I think it would be great if you could fly a fully loaded for NYC A380 off DUB 10R/28L, 358s for everything else and have easy upgrading from 330/350. Never happen but it's a nice thought :D

A380 could also probably go into Filton if it couldn't use BRS for Cheltenham :D

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Post by Michael J Gallagher » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:57 pm

Well maybe I should have said the 787 is a completely band new a/c new technology. I could be wrong in saying the A350s fuselage is the same as the the A330 maybe some slight differences.
I think Airbus was more bothered with its A380 and over looked the demand for a mid sized a/c, to me it looks like the A350 was rushed just my opinon.

But the market does show that the 787 is more superior than the A350, Emirates was expected to order the A350 in Dubai but is now pushing for a bigger the 787.

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Post by A330 » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:07 pm

I?m beginning to wonder which way this order is going to go. I was dead certain it was going to Airbus but now I?m not so sure. The 787 is picking up good orders and looks like it will continue to do so, where as the A350 seems to be lagging behind. But then again all it could take is some huge order from the Middle East to boost sales. I agree with what Michael said about Airbus concentrating too much on the A380 overlooking the med sized jets. Boeing have been working on the 787 for a few years now where I feel airbus have just rushed (to a certain extent) the A350 project.

It will be interesting to see how this goes.

On another slightly related note, call me old fashioned but I don?t like the 787 cockpit. To me it seems a bit boring. Those huge screens take up way too much space. I know now a days they say pilots are there to monitor the systems more than anything but I prefer my dials and clocks. Just my view.

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Post by Center Bogey » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:55 am

How can you say the A350 is rushed when it is not even built yet and if you care to read FI it says Airbus are going to delay so they can include the A380 flight deck. As for the market showing that the 787 is superior, where is the evidence? The great build off between these two aircraft has not started and both are still effectively on the drawing board. Two very il-considered comments in my opinion. Wait til the facts are established before quoting the market and making statements that are patently not true. Try reading the industry press or checking the multitude of web sites, it will give a lot more credence to your posts!

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787 -v- A350

Post by Akerosid » Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:13 am

I think Michael's comments are fair. When the 787 was launched, the A350 was most certainly rushed and was not - and still isn't - defined. It wasn't even clear if it was going to have a wider fuselage (it's Achilles Heel right now) and although it may well have a lot of new materials and it may be an improvement on what is already a fine aircraft, it is still an upgraded A330; you simply cannot look at both aircraft and say that the 350 is not a descendent of the 330. That just doesn't wash.

I think that what caused a lot of airlines to reflect on the 350's competence is that Airbus is spending a fraction of what Boeing is spending on the 787, yet Airbus's figures showed that - surprise, surprise - the A350 was better than the 787 is every relevant category. This was also in the context of several current Airbus models, particularly the A340, falling short on performance promises; Emirates said as much about this.

The cockpit issue is a case in point; several airlines, including the likes of TP, QR and AY, had ordered the 350 and got delivery agreements and now they're told that delivery was to slip by six months. Hmm ...

Whatever about last year's black eye on the orders front, this year's is hardly going to be much better. SIA is expected to announce its decision within the next few weeks (787 most likely), Emirates is expected to launch the 787-10, despite being touted as a 350 customer for a long time. Then there are airlines like Air Pacific, which are leaning heavily towards the 787 and others who haven't ordered yet, like Jet of India and Asiana of Korea - existing 330 customers (Jet hasn't got its 330s yet), which are rejecting the 350 and saying they'll go for 787s. What does this tell you?

I can't remember a competition between two widebodies in recent years where the advantage is so heavily in favour of Boeing. (Actually, I can - last year's 777 -v- A340 battle).

Airbus really needs to sit down and rethink its long haul line; rejigging the 330 and selling it as an all-new plane as a stopgap and doing much the same to the A340-600 isn't going to cut it. The 787 is an all new aircraft for the next decade, it is flexible across various market sectors (can work just as well as a widebody short hauler as it can on ULH routes, whereas the 350 is just a long hauler) and it is wider. The latter fact alone is a very significant boost. So, with all that in mind, I'm of the view now that ordering the 350 would be a big mistake for Aer Lingus, regardless of what kind of financial incentives it gets. The 787 IS the superior aircraft, full stop.

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Post by Center Bogey » Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:27 am

No time to go into detail but it's another il-informed post on the boeing/airbus competition. If you bother to read the facts then you can't stand over most of your statements. As someone who is in an airline actively talking to both companies, about a long haul fleet replacement, I can tell you the Boeing is not a runaway winner. Far from it, time will show! Since you mentioned EK perhaps you might like to read todays Telegraph where in the light of anti-arab press in the states they say>>>
"The next move could be a decision by Emirates Airlines - the region's top carrier - to opt for Europe's Airbus A350 in a $7.5bn order for passenger jets expected next month instead of Boeing's 787 Dreamliner."

All this stuff is out there to be read but people here are too lazy.

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Post by Dutch Roll » Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:31 am

how could the 787 be the far superior aircraft full stop when none of them are even flying as of yet,and how would the A350 be a big mistake for aer lingus??? i cant see the sense in that when it would cost nothing to convert pilots,a little difference in maintenance and of course Airbus have proved to be very efficient aircraft cost wise recently.I see all the glory of new technology on the 787,But this is also present on the A380 if you look at things such as the CRP used to make a large percentage of the aircraft etc.
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Post by Akerosid » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:09 pm

I've seen and read the articles which claim that the fracas over the Dubai ports issue might tilt Emirates in favour of the A350. The truth is, as I said above, that Emirates' CEO strongly favours the 787 and has been pushing Boeing hard to produce the 787-10. BUT, even if they do go for Airbus as a result of the ports issue, it hardly counts as a major victory for the 350.

And I do stand over what I said. I still strongly believe that the 787 is the better aircraft for EI.

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Post by RV BLUE » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:06 am

Center Bogey wrote: As someone who is in an airline actively talking to both companies, about a long haul fleet replacement,
All this stuff is out there to be read but people here are too lazy.



Here we go again, brag, brag, brag..."I'm so informed...I'm an airline pilot...brag, brag, I'm in love with myself.....

While it is perfectally ok for you to voice your opinion on this forum it is quite arogant, and ill-mannered of you to infer that we are all "lazy". Being informed myself I'll refrain from comment on this issue.

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Post by dowlingm » Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:16 am

actually rv-blue I think Center Bogey is bang on. Too much uninformed speculation here (I include myself). Too much sentiment as well - Boeing and Airbus fanboys alike.

The question is not the best aircraft but the best one for EI.

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Post by Center Bogey » Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:12 am

RV-BLUE if you don't want to take part in an informed discussion thats ok, but to cover your ignorance on the subject with abuse is just childish. Your previous posts and attempts to discredit me are well noted but sadly wide of the mark. If you don't agree with me thats one thing but dont try to make me out to be a liar about my job. If you just shut up and listen you might learn something, a good trait if you ever want to be serious about this business. I am trying to be subjective about the Boeing/Airbus topic and refrain from turning it into a pissing match by people who are led by their hearts and not their heads. Your head on the other hand appears to be somewhere else, so I feel it's a wasted exercise.

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Post by VNAV PTH » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:05 am

RV-BLUE wrote:....Here we go again, brag, brag, brag..."I'm so informed...I'm an airline pilot...brag, brag, I'm in love with myself.....


Center Bogey was just pointing out that he/she may have a more informed opinion than other inexperienced "speculators" on this board. Being in a similar position, I fully agree.

Judging by some of the postings on this board, EI will soon be operating a fleet of A380's mixed with 747-400's..........and basing half of those in Cork just to keep them happy down there!! :lol: :lol:

Personally, I'm in the 787 camp. Having had access to a lot of internal 787 info, it comes across as a vastly superior aircraft. However, I'm keeping an open mind until Airbus gets into gear and starts marketing the A350 properly.
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Post by Dutch Roll » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:40 am

[quote="VNAV PTH
Judging by some of the postings on this board, EI will soon be operating a fleet of A380's mixed with 747-400's..........and basing half of those in Cork just to keep them happy down there!! :lol: :lol:
.[/quote]

And of course a few 727's
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Post by VNAV PTH » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:54 am

Dutch Roll wrote: And of course a few 727's


Of course, but they'll only be temporary while awaiting the arrival of the NASA Shuttle to to cover the DUB - SNN route!
Heard from my granny's, aunt's, brother's 3rd cousin who knows a cleaner at the airport that the Starship Enterprise is going to be the new government jet. If that piece of insider info doesn't convince you, you're a heretic........ 8)
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