GPS as Primary Navigation

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Do you use GPS as a primary Nav aid?

I fly VFR and Use GPS as sole means of Navigation
0
No votes
I fly IFR and use GPS instead of NDBs and DME
0
No votes
I Fly VFR and do not own a GPS
3
20%
I fly VFR and use GPS to back up other Navigation
9
60%
I fly VFR and/or IFR and never use a GPS
1
7%
I use celestial navigation
0
No votes
I fly VFR and/or IFR and use GPS as back up.
2
13%
 
Total votes: 15

Cosmic
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GPS as Primary Navigation

Post by Cosmic »

Following on from the Foreign Ops thread last week in this forum, as I was saying there were prosecutions in the UK because Pilots operating Cirrus Aircraft on airways and approaches that required by law the use of ADF and/or DME, but Pilots used GPS as the sole means of Navigation instead.

There was also a very interesting thread on PPRuNe about Homemade GPS approaches, and an accident report from a S-76 heli, of which there were several causes but using GPS as a primary mode of navigation that was not fully understood or safe to couple to a HSI, on a home made approach, resulted in three fatalities.

That of course was an IFR operation, but the relevant authorities still try and press on us that GPS as primary navigation is a very bad thing. Its a regular feature in GASIL for example, and I was not allowed use a state of the art Raim and WAAS enabled GPS for my CPL.

So lets have a Poll, be honest people!

I am the final option.

Biggles
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Post by Biggles »

The "Conclusions" in the following link may demonstrate why not to use GPS as a sole source of navigation.

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/3983-0.pdf

Cosmic
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Post by Cosmic »

And why the IMC rating, though well intentioned has the potential to cause more harm then good. I don't think you can do IFR flight in half measures, it should be all or nothing. At this point I could bleat on about how it should be easier for a PPL to get an IR without having to run off and get an N-Reg A/C but it would be at the risk of sounding like a stuck record!

BTW, to those that voted for GPS as a backup to other aids, what do you mean by this? Does it mean that you pull out a chart if the GPS dies or are you using DR Navigation and switch the GPS on if you get lost?

RV BLUE
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Post by RV BLUE »

This is a very interesting thread and I'm sure its been debated to death, but I hear instructors mention, from time to time, that the PPL course should be changed to include GPS as part of the course. (I'm living in the US). I myself fly with the help of GPS as there is one in the aircraft, a Garmin 430, I carry a spare one(hand held) as a back up. With most new aircraft haveing GPS as standard equipment, most pilots, students, carry spare GPS units. The point really is, is that, GPS is the future, its easy to use and so acurate its, well, not funny. Thats not to say charts are not needed, although there are "paperless aircraft". I'll always carry charts.

FLYbyWIT
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Post by FLYbyWIT »

Personally I will not use them unless the flight requires it due flying old/insufficient equipment on IFR plan. Yes its a good idea to KNOW how to use one but I am surprised with the amount of guys I see with them on VFR hops around the country. Its ridiculous, GPS is not the art of VFR navigation or general pilotage skills. Talking about VFR now> On flying with Guys who use GPS even if they claim its a backup which doesnt wash with me, I have switched it off for a few minutes and watched in disbelief as they came slowly but surely disorientated after loosing the skills they attained in training. Alot of pilots get lost and the ability to re-establish where they are is a great confidence booster and skill for pilots to achieve-You wont get lost with GPS. Other points relate to infringeing airspace or the like, Well Again you have a map,you know your course and you know the winds and your visual so fly the route if you screw it up its all part of the learning curve-whip out the map and re-plan enroute. I just think alot of the true skill of navigation and art of flying is lost if as soon as you have a ppl your flying xc with a GPS. Instead of having quarterly or half way points and calculting drifts and readjusting for various winds and speeds and unforseen circumstances I just see GPS guys tracking the GPS Map. For those guys that plan to go to commercial or instrument flying utilise the instruments, of course you can use a gps as anyone can type in DCT>Point X, but you should be tuning identing navaids, getting radial fixes, checking dme distances and checking your time progress or practice tracking the NDB giving yourself specified QDM's or QDR's to track changing them every few minutes.
Just my opinion!

EIDEL
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Post by EIDEL »

:D They are getting your goat FbW. One side is the SoA.glasscockpits .The other side is the seat of your damn pants paper and all . I have a feeling GPS is for u.s wimps Not the intrepid Irish aviator . If you get lost on this pebble then you should always fly with a check pilot. In the end toys will be toys :P :P 8) :D I love toysDEL lol

FLYbyWIT
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Post by FLYbyWIT »

Ahh Shoot, Me so Stoopid. Me love toys too-My latest is a citation X.
Q the muffled Bullsh1t call from the audience.

RV BLUE
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Post by RV BLUE »

FlyByWit, I do agree with you it is important to have good pilotage skills, but we are all human beings and tend to lean in the direction of tools that make life easier. very few of us like to have our head buried in a map while flying. I read in an aviation weekly that Cessna will produce nearly nine hundred single aeroplanes this year, all of them with "Glass" cockpits. The article stated that the increase was due to the demand for these types of cockpits. At my flying club we have a Diamond Da 40, with a Garmin G 1000, its booked out seven weekends ahead.

Cosmic
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Post by Cosmic »

At my flying club we have a Diamond Da 40, with a Garmin G 1000, its booked out seven weekends ahead


Seems to be a general problem in this country though, weather aside. Availability seems to be a major issue, or should I be looking further afield than Weston?

Lionel Hutz
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Post by Lionel Hutz »

IFR flight in a single engine, single pilot configuration is in my experience not something to be undertaken lightly. I would go so far as to say its not very much fun. I recall one flight in particular as I was approaching the end of my IFR training where my instructor in actual IMC made me fly partial panel. I was well wrapped up in the notorious Southern California marine layer (which is truly IMC but fairly Benign IMC, not much turbulence and no Icing) That portion of the flight lasted about 30 mins and was concluded with an NDB approach. As it was happening I just got on with the Job, but after I had landed the amount of sweat expired became apparent. I was absolutley knackered. I can only imagine what it would have been like if the wind was howling and there was lightning about.

Multi pilot flying IFR with an autopilot, maybee even multiply redundant autopilots, an FMS and deicing equipment is probably a snap, even on one occasion when my instructor demonstrated how the airlines do it, I flew the plane and he did all the other stuff, tuned radios, navigated, and handled communications, a Cessna 172 suddenly turned from a lot of work to an enjoyable lesson.

I do not fear the clouds anymore because I have flown in them, that said I do not seek them out and prefer VFR flying. If I am out one day and I happen to fly into a cloud it will be a non event, I will transition to Instruments and execute a 180.

What I would like to see in this country is an IMC rating similar to the UK, A lot of times I would like to fly somewhere and all I need is to get up above a thin overcast (with a 1000ft ceiling) or drop down below one to land. but I cannot go as I fly an Irish plane on an FAA ticket. I would not shoot an ILS to 200ft,because although I have done so in the past (at a time in when I was flying 4 times a week) nowadays I just wouldn't be flying on a day like that.

being allowed to fly in "light IMC" with Higher minima than regular IFR would in my opinion be preferable to scud running.

GPS is the cats meeow.

I have no axe to grind with it, and I do use it a lot.

I do however back it up with more tried and tested navigation methods. Most notably being able to recognise landmarks on the ground that correspond to the Map.

The rules of Navigation

1. If you dont know where you are, YOU'RE LOST.

2. See rule 1.

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