Economics of owning a plane?

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lazza
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Post by lazza » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:38 pm

Cosmic wrote:
You can't fly IFR in a permit aircraft,


As has been mentioned before, the vast vast majority of GA in Ireland is VFR only. Its is incredibly expensive and difficult to get licenced to fly IFR and the whole set up in Ireland doesn't really favour it. So I think as Joey says, its a Moo point.


The guy specificaly mentions flying round europe not just in ireland, therefor your moo point is invalid :roll:

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Post by Bluebeard » Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:39 pm

If you have the money - and it seems you do - and the inclination, you'd be mad NOT to consider buying. Consider where you are going to keep your aircraft? Hangarage is expensive, and aircraft do not improve if kept outside. Would you be able to do regular maintance items yourself, or do you dislike such work? If you can do much of the maintenance yourself you could have a non-certified aircraft on a permit-to-fly (e.g. a homebuilt or a "classic" whose manufacturer is no longer in business). This is much less expensive to operate, as has been commented on above. However flying a Permit aircraft around Europe as you wish is rather an obstacle course of bureaucracy, each country has its own requirements and there is no standard among the various aviation authorities. You would need to weigh this inconvenience up against the cost savings.

Btw someone above mentioned no IFR and no 4-seaters on Permits, this is not wholly correct.

Good luck, whatever you do.

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Post by Cosmic » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:34 pm

Lazza, Perhaps I wasn't quite as clear as I could be. You might read what I wrote again.

The big problem is getting the Pilot licenced to fly IFR. It takes an amount of money that would buy a share in most GA aircraft and takes a huge amount of effort to pass and study the exams. In Britain for example last year there were about 25 PPL/IR holders. Thats out of almost 30,000 PPLs.

So IFR for SEP is not impossible but there are many hurdles of expense and time that the vast majority can not justify.

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Post by hibby » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:51 pm

Sorry for coming back so late to this thread - I was in Japan for the last three weeks!

Reading over all your contributions I am pleased at the helpful responses, and also confused.

When you say "permit-to-fly" and "permit aircraft", that is as opposed to what? Certificate of airworthiness? I take it there is a cost saving involved there? Can anyone explain?

If aircraft under 450 kg (ultralights) qualify as permit aircraft, what is the significance of the 560 kg (VLA) limit in terms of regulations or cost implications?

Talking about flying to other parts of Europe (or at least outside Ireland) - I currently have no intention of getting instrument rated. Is this a problem for flying to or in other jurisdictions?

So far the most attractive option to me would be the new or nearly new Zodiac or similar. I take it this is a "permit aircraft" if my all-up weight never exceeds 450 kg, but if I ever exceed this I will need a CofA?

What about the "ride quality" of very light aircraft? My wife is susceptible to motion sickness - would I be better off buying a "spamcan" for a more stable cruise?

Sorry about all the very stupid questions - I guess I really am new to all this.

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Post by YoYo » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:26 am

Welcome back Hibby - Japan must be very nice at this time of year

You ask a lot of questions so lets see if I can answer most of them.

There are 3 organisations involved in your questions - the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA), the Irish Microlight Association (IMA) and the Society for Amatuer Aircraft Constructors (SAAC). The IMA and SAAC are non profit making organisations - basically enthusiasts who have come together to form an association and define the rules under which their sport should be run. The 2 organisations have applied to the IAA, and were granted, inspection rights to the aircraft they 'control' i.e. their members aircraft.

Permit aircraft are those aircraft which come under the SAAC inspection regime. They are primarily homebuilt aircraft with some vintage aircraft thrown in. So if you hear someone refer to an aircraft as a Permit Aircraft they are basically saying its a homebuild. Don't be put off considering Permit Aircraft because most of them are excellent and are lovingly looked after by their owners.

Microlights and ultralights with a MAUW (maximum all up weight) of 450kg are looked after by the IMA in a similar way to permit aircraft being looked after by SAAC except that the IMA don't issue the permit. I think they submit their paperwork to the IAA who issue a CofA. No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong

Where these 2 organisations win over all the other CofA aircraft is that they have the inspection rights to the aircraft. Each organisation has its own engineers who inspect the aircraft. Being non profit organisations the cost of the permit or CofA (for IMA) is small compared to the same process run by IAA licenced engineers for all of the other CofA aircraft. The SAAC and IMA engineers give their time free or for expenses incurred in getting to and from the aircraft. A very big saving.

On your question regarding the stability of microlights. The usual rule is the heavier the aircraft the better it rides the turbulence. I suggest you get a ride in as many aircraft as possible and compare their ride quality.

good luck

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VLA Aircraft

Post by Mark H » Wed May 04, 2005 5:34 pm

We have heard a lot of differrent numbers etc regrding the advantages and disadvantages of VLA and Microlight aircraft on this thread. 3 questions I have after reading it are:

1) Does a VLA have to be homebuilt?

2) I see some aircraft EG CT2k Can be bought as a VLA and a Ultralight Does that mean that If you get it certified as a VLA, that is where it has to stay? In germany I notice that you can buy this aircraft with a BRS but this would push the 450kg limit too much.

3) what is the difference between the two in Ireland, with regards to running costs.

Mark

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Re: Economics of owning a plane?

Post by Wings » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:03 pm

Hi Hibby

I recently got my PPL in Weston and looking to buy my own plane. Like yourself i have worked out running costs to be in around 7-8k yearly. I eas looking at 172's. I was also lookinf at a Zodac CH640 home build which is a 4 seater. At the moment i would be looking at flying 20-30 hrs a year. Would you be interested in a partnership if i decided on something like a C172. Its a thought as to make it worth while there would need to be 50 + hours a year flown. Let me know what you think.

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Re: Economics of owning a plane?

Post by Pilot » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:41 pm

I think your running costs of €7-8K per year are on the very low side unless you can do a lot of the maintenance yourself and have somewhere you can keep the aircraft free of charge.

A typical annual could be €6-7K. You might be quoted less, but there is always additional work that seems to need to be done. A bad year could potentially cost you twice that.

Other big fixed costs are parking/hangerage and insurance and will vary a lot depending on your circumstances.

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Re: Economics of owning a plane?

Post by lazza » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:14 pm

7-8k seems reasonable, I've opertated a Grumman tiger for the last 4 years for well under 6k per year including hangerage, insurance and maintenance and its never let me down.

Make sure you get a good pre purchase inspection and join a type group for more info e.g. Cessna.org or grumman.net

Tiger cruises at 130 knots burning about 30litres per hour or 142kts flat out at 37litres per hour, of course you can pootle arround at 110kts/22 litres per hour if that's your thing (or even slower/less fuel again if you have all day) It will lift 1,000lbs and operate out of 450meters of grass, range is about 550nm with a one hour reserve. No wobbily prop or pop up wheels so maintenance is really low cost.

Cheap as chips:-)

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Re: Economics of owning a plane?

Post by aviatorsguide » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:35 pm

Old thread revival party. Wonder has the OP found a solution to his aircraft needs (wants) in the last 8 years... 2005 seems like a blurry memory. Wouldn't ever try put precise costs together for airplane ownership, it would only dilute the pleasure and rub salt into the bad days when it all goes "tango uniform". Totally agree about the type clubs (CPA, Piper Owners, BeechTalk etc etc.) No substitute for on type experience from knowledgeable owners of the type in question.

William

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Re: Economics of owning a plane?

Post by Rudy » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:25 pm

OP bought a share in a 172 and currently resides in Japan.
I'm advised he's returning this year
Rudy

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Re:

Post by jonkil » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:34 pm

YoYo wrote: There are 3 organisations involved in your questions - the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA), the Irish Microlight Association (IMA) and the Society for Amatuer Aircraft Constructors (SAAC).
Sorry to amend your answer, but it is incorrect:
Microlights in the Republic of Ireland are looked after by the NMAI, the National microlight association of Ireland, see http://www.nmai.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and not by any other body. I am an inspector & check pilot for the NMAI.
YoYo wrote: Microlights and ultralights with a MAUW (maximum all up weight) of 450kg are looked after by the IMA in a similar way to permit aircraft being looked after by SAAC except that the IMA don't issue the permit. I think they submit their paperwork to the IAA who issue a CofA. No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong
Again, its the NMAI,
The weight of a microlight in Ireland is indeed 450KGS, however there is older versions that are 390KGS MAUW.
But there is more, a microlight can go to 472.5KGS MAUW if it is fitted with a ballistic recovery system, and the BRS can weigh as little as 5KGS, so there is a worthwhile weight gain.
Regarding the permit issue, the NMAI permit system has changed recently to a new 3 year cycle, 2 of the 3 years the NMAI issue the permit and the 3rd year the IAA issues it.

Regarding the touring ability, yes they are VFR only but dont let that put you off. I have flown a C42 all over Ireland, the UK and Europe too.... burning 12 litres unleaded fuel per hour and can slip the plane in and out of 200 metres without issue. Couple that to performance that trances a lot of older spam can types, the ability to base it on a short farm strip and all the benefits of the permit system makes microlights a very very attractive propitiation. Some of the modern VLA's are absolutely astounding, take the Bambi MCRo1, 150 knot cruise, 12 litres per hour, and can operate from 300 metres......
The downside of those types are the purchase price.... +50K sterling in most cases.

Hope that helps, any questions then drop me a PM, or if you want a joyride we could organise that too.

Jon

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