VFR at Night

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Pilot
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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Pilot » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:37 am

Jim,

I think you're on a bit of a limb claiming ATC is the competent authority.

The SERA defines it as
‘competent authority’ means the authority designated by the Member State as competent to ensure compliance with the requirements of this Regulation;
That is the IAA not ATC.

Of course we should be allowed to keep SVFR at night if there is no VFR at night. But it's up to the IAA to issue an exemption before this comes into place, not ATC.

P

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Jim » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:00 am

Who do you think is more competent to ensure that the SVFR flight is complying with the regulations?

Do you seriously believe that Shannon Control seeks permission from the IAA every time an SVFR is required?

If they decided to discontinue SVFR, there would be a lot more than me creating a rumpus! ICAO would recommend abolishing the IAA and we would be back again in the hands of the DoT.
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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Pilot » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:35 pm

Jim wrote:Who do you think is more competent to ensure that the SVFR flight is complying with the regulations?

Do you seriously believe that Shannon Control seeks permission from the IAA every time an SVFR is required?

If they decided to discontinue SVFR, there would be a lot more than me creating a rumpus! ICAO would recommend abolishing the IAA and we would be back again in the hands of the DoT.
Jim,

I've never suggested that ATC refer to the IAA for SVFR. They don't because they don't have to at present. SVFR is allowed at night under our current rules. That will chance on 4 December unless something is done. I don't expect that Shannon ATC would refer on a case by case basis after SERA comes in either. So either the IAA give a general exemption or we don't get any.

There is only four possibilities here.
1. The IAA allow VFR at night and don't continue with their current stand
2. The IAA opt for the 2 year derogation for SERA and we simply get 2 more years before this changes
3. the IAA give a general exemption allowing SVFR at night and we continue on as before
4. the IAA opt not to allow VFR at night and don't do anything else in which case we can no longer fly at night without an IR.

Your last two posts are somewhat bizzare. ATC is not the "competent authority" as defined in the regulation.

As a fully paid up AOPA-Ireland member, I had thought that in bringing the issue polietly to your attention that you would make representations to the IAA to ensure that they do one of options 1 2 or 3 above and not option 4.

To be frank, I'd have thought that options 2 and 3 would be pushing against an open door, and there would be no problem in getting them to do so, provided they were aware of the potential problem.

Unfortunately I bizzarly find myself trying to explain to you that the rules as drafted which come into effect in 2 months time ban SVFR an night and that Shannon ATC isn't the Competent Authority as defined under this leglisation, and am left with not faith that you understand the issue involved.

I will go and make my own representations on this issue directly to the IAA, as disappointingly, I'm left with little confidence that you are in a position to do so on my behalf.

I really had hoped for better from AOPA but fear that your last two posts will put other people off joining. It's only through numbers that AOPA Ireland can become a powerfull organisation, and I hope those postings don't put people off.

P

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Jim » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:51 pm

Your last two posts are somewhat bizzare. ATC is not the "competent authority" as defined in the regulation.
They were delegated the competent authority in 1993 and under the present EASA Acceptable Means of Compliance (AMC’s) they still are. http://www.easa.europa.eu/rulemaking/fa ... ce-AMC.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As a fully paid up AOPA-Ireland member, I had thought that in bringing the issue polietly to your attention that you would make representations to the IAA to ensure that they do one of options 1 2 or 3 above and not option 4.

All members, subscribed and free, has my email address and mobile phone number, plus the locations I am periodically at, to approach me with their concerns. I openly invite them all (quite often) to approach me with their issues which I have always acted upon with the authorities concerned, I have quite a list built up over the past 3 years! However, someone posting under a pseudonym on a public forum can be quite difficult to identify, especially one I am not a regular visitor to. Even more difficult to verify if they are an AOPA member unless they mention it.
Unfortunately I bizzarly find myself trying to explain to you that the rules as drafted which come into effect in 2 months time ban SVFR an night and that Shannon ATC isn't the Competent Authority as defined under this leglisation, and am left with not faith that you understand the issue involved.
Not quite sure where you believe there is a ban on SVFR mentioned. There is absolutely NO ban on it and there wont be under the draft.
I told you days ago that there is no change in the present situation as we now stand. There is a slight change in the wording which will not affect the present situation.
I will go and make my own representations on this issue directly to the IAA, as disappointingly, I'm left with little confidence that you are in a position to do so on my behalf.

The IAA will tell you there will be no change except for the wording, AOPA went through this draft when we first received it. We have made representation to the IAA on some issues within the draft which we feel needs attention.
I really had hoped for better from AOPA but fear that your last two posts will put other people off joining. It's only through numbers that AOPA Ireland can become a powerfull organisation, and I hope those postings don't put people off.
With due respects Sir, I believe potential members will see that I informed you some days ago that SVFR will not change and certainly will not be “Banned”. You appear to have misread the draft. SVFR is allowed at present with the authority of ATC, this shall remain so under SERA, its just the wording that has changed to require the higher authority of Senior ATC officer/Supervisorr to authorize it at night time, instead of any controller. That affects the ATC personnel and not the pilot.

Jim
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Re: VFR at Night

Post by GJOYT » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:12 pm

I've heard on the grapevine that as of January 2014 Night VFR is permitted outside Controlled Airpsace. Has anyone heard the same? I tried having a quick browse of SERA but can't find it. If anyone could clarify this for me I'd greatly appreciate it. :)

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Carrier Pigeon » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:02 pm

OK I've got the solution to all yer problems :lol: When it starts to get dark just land on the nearest road and hit the 'Retract Wings' button :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... w6ybXBF9AU

P.S.
You guys should know that Ireland is the only country in the world with Mountains :roll:

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by lookout » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:25 pm

Yes for the UK, I wouldn't hold your breath down south, GJOYT, the phrase "so prescribed by the competent authority" provides the option to prohibit or restrict it.
Equally the requirement to be 1000 below cloud (table s5-1) and 2000 above "high terrain" greatly limits your options for uncontrolled airspace on the average Irish night to all but the midlands.
An EASA observer told me recently that over 30 derevations to SERA have been declared by National Authorities - So much for "Standardised Rules" -

New provision. ICAO Annex 2, 4.3, is replaced with Implementing Regulation (EU) No 923/2012 SERA.5005(c). The difference is that Implementing Regulation (EU) No 923/2012 adds requirements under which VFR flights at night may be permitted, as follows:

‘(c) When so prescribed by the competent authority, VFR flights at night may be permitted under the following conditions:

(1) if leaving the vicinity of an aerodrome, a flight plan shall be submitted;

(2) flights shall establish and maintain two-way radio communication on the appropriate ATS communication channel, when available;

(3) the VMC visibility and distance from cloud minima as specified in Table S5-1 shall apply except that: (i) the ceiling shall not be less than 450 m (1 500 ft); (ii) except as specified in (c)(4), the reduced flight visibility provisions specified in Table S5-1(a) and (b) shall not apply; (iii) in airspace classes B, C, D, E, F and G, at and below 900 m (3 000 ft) above MSL or 300 m (1 000 ft) above terrain, whichever is the higher, the pilot shall maintain continuous sight of the surface; (iv) for helicopters in airspace classes F and G, flight visibility shall not be less than 3 km, provided that the pilot maintains continuous sight of the surface and if manoeuvred at a speed that will give adequate opportunity to observe other traffic or obstacles in time to avoid collision; and (v) for mountainous terrain, higher VMC visibility and distance from cloud minima may be prescribed.

(4) ceiling, visibility and distance from cloud minima lower than those specified 4.3(c) above may be permitted for helicopters in special cases, such as medical flights, search and rescue operations and fire-fighting.

(5) except when necessary for take-off or landing, or except when specifically authorised by the competent authority, a VFR flight at night shall be flown at a level which is not below the minimum flight altitude established by the State whose territory is overflown, or, where no such minimum flight altitude has been established: (i) over high terrain or in mountainous areas, at a level which is at least 600 m (2 000 ft) above the highest obstacle located within 8 km of the estimated position of the aircraft; (ii) elsewhere than as specified in (i), at a level which is at least 300 m (1 000 ft) above the highest obstacle located within 8 km of the estimated position of the aircraft.’

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by GJOYT » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:03 pm

Hi lookout. I was referring to Night Flying VFR in Irish Airspace/Shannon FIR outside controlled airspace. My bad for not stipulating this.

I have heard a few people saying that from January onwards we will be able to Night Fly VFR outside controlled airpsace i.e. Flying from Sligo to Shannon at night and back VFR. Has anyone else heard similar?

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