VFR at Night
  • Higgie
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    VFR at Night

    by Higgie » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:29 pm

    Hi All
    I found this quite interesting.
    Maybe some benefits to EASA after all.
    regards
    Higgie
    http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; atid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=5162

    if the link doesn't work, put the sentence below into google and look for the document dated September 2012

    caa vfr at night in class d airspace
  • Demonduck
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by Demonduck » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:15 pm

    Interesting, Thanks for the post,

    William

    http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP493Supp ... ssue02.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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    aviatorsguide
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by aviatorsguide » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:43 pm

    Part-SERA is expected to come into force on 4 December 2012 (albeit with a transition period enabled until 4 December 2014). This Regulation will allow Member States to decide whether to allow aircraft to fly under VFR at night and it is anticipated that all European States will choose to follow this route as most already do.

    What's the chances of Ireland allowing it? Fat chance, slim chance, not a chance, no chance or are you even a chancer for asking about it?
  • NoSiG
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by NoSiG » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:29 pm

    aviatorsguide wrote:Part-SERA is expected to come into force on 4 December 2012 (albeit with a transition period enabled until 4 December 2014). This Regulation will allow Member States to decide whether to allow aircraft to fly under VFR at night and it is anticipated that all European States will choose to follow this route as most already do.

    What's the chances of Ireland allowing it? Fat chance, slim chance, not a chance, no chance or are you even a chancer for asking about it?
    As there is no "D" airspace in the shannon FIR, the IAA can breath a sigh of relief. We couldn't have that sort of thing in Ireland! Or have I missed the point?
  • Pilot
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by Pilot » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:08 am

    The class D part isn't too relevant, as the first document linked to is simply the UK implimenting the Single European Rules of the Air (part of which Aviators Guide has linked to).

    My understanding is the same as Aviators' Guide's. The Single European Rules of the Air will be far from Single European! Each country seems to have a choice over VFR at night, and while they might "expect" that every country will allow it, I'm not so sure that the IAA will.

    I hope to be plesantly surprised though ;)
  • stovepipe
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by stovepipe » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:10 am

    I asked an IAA guy about it, back when they did air accident investigations and he said that the status would remain unchanged, because they didn't want to be scraping fellas off mountains (his words). He said that the only people who actually needed to fly at night in NVFR were the small commercials and they invariably used SVFR to avoid Nav charges. Anyone else flying at night, he said, were usually people chancing their arm outside the zones.
    I'd be surprised if it changed.

    regards
    Stovepipe
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    aviatorsguide
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by aviatorsguide » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:19 pm

    Agh it's a good thing we leave nothing to chance in Ireland.

    I'll be waiting for the UK AAIB website to implode with the gruesome details of all the british pilots they've scraped off various mountains at night, as they fall foul of the privileges offered by the new legislation. Chances are I could be waiting a while.

    Hardly a great endorsement for the flight training they preside over and garner fee's from if they do not trust the pilots they regulate, to do what's been safely done for decades in other countries? Funny that there are hundreds of minimum time SPL novices flying night xcountry flights all over the US, and they mostly seem to safely alight on terra firma.

    Stovepipe and Pilot are pretty accurate here in their viewpoints. Perhaps what really get's exposed here is, we get regulation here based on a presumption of "Need"... If it is thought that nobody "Needs" to fly VFR at night then why waste time to confer that privilege into regulation? In other countries GA is regulated as to maximize utility that can be achieved from given infrastructure. It's nice to know my presumed "Needs" are being thought of elsewhere, by somebody else who cares :roll:

    P.S. Perhaps it's an underground conspiracy to get all pilots home from the airfield in time for their tea and favorite TV? Makes as much sense......
  • NAG
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by NAG » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:04 pm

    It's kind of ironic that they'll still allow you do a night rating though.
  • GJOYT
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by GJOYT » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:31 pm

    Hi guys,

    I heard of someone who has flown NVFR various times outside controlled airspace after departing a control zone in the Shannon FIR and nothing was said to them whilst in radio contact with Shannon?

    I'm sure that the ATC guys in Shannon must know that NVFR in uncontrolled airspace is not allowed? Its very silly when you think of it that you can fly from Enniskillen to London NVFR but yet you cant hop from Enniskillen to Sligo?
  • GJOYT
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by GJOYT » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:26 pm

    Got the below from this link on the IAA website http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Frame1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

    2.8. VFR Flights at Night
    2.8.1. VFR flights at night operated in a control zone shall be operated as special VFR flights subject to a
    clearance from the air traffic control unit responsible for that zone and elsewhere in accordance with the
    conditions prescribed by the Authority or, in any other state, the appropriate ATS authority;
    2.8.2. Special VFR flights at night authorised in a control zone may only operate to or from aerodromes or
    heliports suitably equipped for night operations;
    2.8.3. Flights by night outside a control zone shall be operated as IFR flights in accordance with Part IV of the
    Rules in this Order unless otherwise prescribed or authorised by the Authority.
  • stovepipe
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by stovepipe » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:18 am

    Hi there
    If enough people make enough noise, then the IAA might listen. After all, if an Irish-issued EASA license is supposed to be equal to anyone else's, then the alleged privilege of flying at night must, by default be available to holders of same without restriction, because the present condition is, in effect, unilaterally imposing a condition on all Irish pilots. Apart from that, the IAA would probably have to allow it so as to pass their EASA audits.

    regards
    Stovepipe
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    by JFH » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:41 pm

    b
    Last edited by JFH on Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • Aidoair
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by Aidoair » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:34 am

    Sounds a bit odd to me that you cant fly VFR at night in Ireland . I hold a USA ppl and have to do whats called night currency , meaning once every 90 days I have to do 3 take offs and landings to full stop in order to be night current . If not then its just the same flight with an instructor to become current again . For the USA PPL there is night flying time required and a dual night cross country vfr .
    It dont make sence that you should have to have an IFR rating to fly vfr at night . Most pilots have GPS in their craft now anyway so its not like pilots would be reading maps and looking for landmarks at night .!
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    aviatorsguide
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by aviatorsguide » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:05 am

    Where is the "NO FLY AT NIGHT" line drawn there? I can't see it drawn on any maps...

    I could be wrong but I think it's called the FIR Boundary 8)
  • Pilot
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    Re: VFR at Night

    by Pilot » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:43 am

    JFH wrote:If you departed the UK at night, in say your Cessna bug-smasher 150, and plodded on westwards over the Irish sea in the dark ; When would you actually fly into the Irish "NO FLY AT NIGHT" boundary that is in class G airspace if you are operating VFR?

    The same too, but let's say I take off from my hypothetically owned super yacht anchored a couple dozen miles of the Irish west coast and I wanted to fly my Jet Ranger, VFR; that I have parked on my yacht's heli-deck into Ireland for a night out.
    Where is the "NO FLY AT NIGHT" line drawn there? I can't see it drawn on any maps...
    As AG says....the FIR boundary is clearly marked on the chart. Inside that there is no VFR at night. Special VFR at night is only available in Control Zones. Not CTA's or any other form of controlled airspace but Control Zones only (CTR). They too are marked on the map, but none of them touch an FIR boundary.

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