I hold an IAA issued JAR PPL. I also hold an FAA PPL which was issued on the basis of my JAR PPL.
If I were to obtain an FAA instrument rating, would the IAA give me any IMC privileges in Irish airspace on an EI reg aircraft?
p
FAA IR
Moderator: mark
By IMC priledges I persume you mean flying IFR and not on IMC priviledges which are different. IMC is a CAA only rating and therefore only useful in UK airspace on G reg aircraft, it just gives you reduced minima for operating in but thats all, its not an invite to go IFR.
But If what I suppose you meant by flying exercising your FAA IR on your IAA PPL on EI reg, confusing it is I dont beleive so. Pretty sure if you wish to exercise your FAA priviledges it must be on an N-Reg aircraft and even then I am not sure if the IAA would let you loose that easy but just an opinion. You best gice the IAA a call.
But If what I suppose you meant by flying exercising your FAA IR on your IAA PPL on EI reg, confusing it is I dont beleive so. Pretty sure if you wish to exercise your FAA priviledges it must be on an N-Reg aircraft and even then I am not sure if the IAA would let you loose that easy but just an opinion. You best gice the IAA a call.
Pretty sure if you wish to exercise your FAA priviledges it must be on an N-Reg aircraft and even then I am not sure if the IAA would let you loose that easy but just an opinion
I can't quote you a line from a rulebook FLY but I would be fairly confident your wrong there. A lot of people who fly privately go the FAA IR ticket and N Reg aircraft route so thay can fly IFR in europe without having to undergo ridiculous requirements designed for commercial pilots and not private operators.
Hopefully Lionel Hutz can come along and wave his FAR-AIM at us from forty Paces.
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Lionel Hutz
- Unverified User
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am
Not quite forty paces but here is a quote from an accident report that spells it out fairly clearly.
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2.14 Oversight aspects N7205R was operated on the US register, but was to be based in Ireland, and was flown by a pilot who held a USA Pilots licence on condition that his UK Licence remained current. The FAA requirements were met as the aircraft was maintained in accordance with FAA regulations and flown with a pilot with a valid FAA licence. The Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) would normally only take an interest in the operation of foreign registered private category aircraft when there is an identified breach of Irish aviation law.
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Essentially the rules that you fly under in Irish airspace are Irish rules namely the Air navigation and transport acts.
Under such acts flights by aircraft of other countries are allowed and by way of reciprocation laid out in the Chicago convention Irish aircraft are allowed to fly abroad.
the critical points are
1. Don't have an accident or incident or engage in commercial activity
They (the IAA) are not interested in you unless you bring yourself to their attention.
2. In order to avail of the reciprocity entitlements regarding IFR flight you should be legal in both states. ie N-reg A/C requires FAA PPL + IFR rating + BFR + FAA medical. You should then fly in accordance with IAA rules in respect of everything else such as Night Flying, departure minima, approach minima, minimum required equipment etc. In such a case It would be nigh on impossible for them (the IAA) to prosecute you if you were unlucky enough to have an incident.
If you start mixing licences and ratings then you enter a grey area which is most likely illegal. ie JAA PPL + FAA PPL issued on basis of JAA PPL + FAA IFR rating issued on FAA PPL outlined above, flying an EI reg A/C IFR in Ireland. I wouldn't do it.
As an aside to the first point the medical required to fly N-reg on an FAA PPL anywhere in the world is a FAA class 3 medical. For the purposes of an automatic validation to fly EI reg aircraft the IAA have in my opinion wrongly deemed this medical to be sub ICAO.
Since they have spoken on the issue it would be prudent to hold at least a Class 2 FAA medical while flying N-reg on an FAA PPL in irish airspace.
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Private IFR flying in Ireland (light aircraft) is a rare species indeed. From what I can see most of the small amount of it that takes place happens in N-Reg aircraft or is centered around IR training at a few pilot schools. The only other people who do it aside from the airlines are Biz jet/turbo operators of which quite a few are also on the N-reg.
Private IFR flying in the US is although more popular than here still the preserve of a few
A recent AOPA(USA) statistic cites 90% of all GA flights in the USA are conducted VFR.
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As with all things Aviation follows the path of least resistance.
The onerous regulations put on pilot training, aircraft maintenance etc by the JAR's have seen a lot of Europeans follow the path of least resistance by going the N-reg route.
If the regulations were properly harmonised then you would not see the steady increase in the number of N-reg private a/c in Europe because there would be no advantage in it.
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2.14 Oversight aspects N7205R was operated on the US register, but was to be based in Ireland, and was flown by a pilot who held a USA Pilots licence on condition that his UK Licence remained current. The FAA requirements were met as the aircraft was maintained in accordance with FAA regulations and flown with a pilot with a valid FAA licence. The Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) would normally only take an interest in the operation of foreign registered private category aircraft when there is an identified breach of Irish aviation law.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Essentially the rules that you fly under in Irish airspace are Irish rules namely the Air navigation and transport acts.
Under such acts flights by aircraft of other countries are allowed and by way of reciprocation laid out in the Chicago convention Irish aircraft are allowed to fly abroad.
the critical points are
1. Don't have an accident or incident or engage in commercial activity
They (the IAA) are not interested in you unless you bring yourself to their attention.
2. In order to avail of the reciprocity entitlements regarding IFR flight you should be legal in both states. ie N-reg A/C requires FAA PPL + IFR rating + BFR + FAA medical. You should then fly in accordance with IAA rules in respect of everything else such as Night Flying, departure minima, approach minima, minimum required equipment etc. In such a case It would be nigh on impossible for them (the IAA) to prosecute you if you were unlucky enough to have an incident.
If you start mixing licences and ratings then you enter a grey area which is most likely illegal. ie JAA PPL + FAA PPL issued on basis of JAA PPL + FAA IFR rating issued on FAA PPL outlined above, flying an EI reg A/C IFR in Ireland. I wouldn't do it.
As an aside to the first point the medical required to fly N-reg on an FAA PPL anywhere in the world is a FAA class 3 medical. For the purposes of an automatic validation to fly EI reg aircraft the IAA have in my opinion wrongly deemed this medical to be sub ICAO.
Since they have spoken on the issue it would be prudent to hold at least a Class 2 FAA medical while flying N-reg on an FAA PPL in irish airspace.
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Private IFR flying in Ireland (light aircraft) is a rare species indeed. From what I can see most of the small amount of it that takes place happens in N-Reg aircraft or is centered around IR training at a few pilot schools. The only other people who do it aside from the airlines are Biz jet/turbo operators of which quite a few are also on the N-reg.
Private IFR flying in the US is although more popular than here still the preserve of a few
A recent AOPA(USA) statistic cites 90% of all GA flights in the USA are conducted VFR.
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As with all things Aviation follows the path of least resistance.
The onerous regulations put on pilot training, aircraft maintenance etc by the JAR's have seen a lot of Europeans follow the path of least resistance by going the N-reg route.
If the regulations were properly harmonised then you would not see the steady increase in the number of N-reg private a/c in Europe because there would be no advantage in it.
Not quite forty paces but here is a quote from an accident report that spells it out fairly clearly.
I meant that in a respectfull way!
I don't understand why people who fly an N-Reg full time get a licence based on another. Why not just do the full FAA PPL, its not especially difficult and its valid for life. It takes you out of the grey areas.
Sure,
Having a full faa PPL may clear the grey area but with regards to safety I would think that the JAA ppl/faa ir holder would be a safer pilot in JAA land than the FAA ppl/ir holder who has been trained fully on the US system.Either of these qualifications will give you IR priveledges in an N reg aircraft in Ireland but I dont think anyone is suggesting doing the same in a EI reg ,which is of course illegal.
That said,has anyone out there converted an FAA IR to JAR IR and if so what are the requirements by the IAA.
Thanks
zulu
Having a full faa PPL may clear the grey area but with regards to safety I would think that the JAA ppl/faa ir holder would be a safer pilot in JAA land than the FAA ppl/ir holder who has been trained fully on the US system.Either of these qualifications will give you IR priveledges in an N reg aircraft in Ireland but I dont think anyone is suggesting doing the same in a EI reg ,which is of course illegal.
That said,has anyone out there converted an FAA IR to JAR IR and if so what are the requirements by the IAA.
Thanks
zulu
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Lionel Hutz
- Unverified User
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am
Cosmic, I took no offence to your comment and I certainly did not wish to imply that I had taken such offence in my reply, Thanks anyway.
Zulu, just on a matter of interest what evidence do you have to support your assertion that someone trained fully on the US system would be less safe in JAA land?
From my experience of flying in both places, mostly in the US. I would like to make the following points.
1. It is easier to get your ass into the left seat in the US, It is cheaper and there is much more availability of aircraft, added to this is the fact that in the US you tend to deal with flying businesses who have a vested interest in making money and have no interest in being the King of their own little Castles. In this country you find yourself dealing for the most part with Flying Clubs, albeit with the best will in the world, doing their best and certainly appreciated, are not in the business of turning a profit and do all seem to inevitably get mired in internal politics.
2. Once you get yourself into the left seat in this country it is a significantly less challenging experience than most parts of the US.
Firstly traffic, The only significant traffic around these parts is heavy Jet Transports, and you will encounter them only at the larger airports, They spend very little time at the altitudes that GA is so fond of, and Irish ATC puts a 'no fly for little guys zone' around them whenever they take off or land. In Short conflicting traffic is not a significant factor in Ireland.
In the US however you will need to be on your toes regarding traffic at all times. they just have too many airplanes.
Secondly Airline pilots who fly from Europe to the US will tell you that they do not see huge difference between the IFR system in either place, for them this is true because of the equipment they fly and the procedures that they follow.
For the GA pilot flying IFR, Ireland and (Europe generally) is EASY compared to the US, although a proficent GA pilot will be following procedures similar to the airlines he has a significant deficit in equipment mostly in the form of a co-pilot. In short you can screw up a lot easier in the US with greater consequences. Therefore it takes a higher standard of airmanship to be successful in the US.
Zulu, just on a matter of interest what evidence do you have to support your assertion that someone trained fully on the US system would be less safe in JAA land?
From my experience of flying in both places, mostly in the US. I would like to make the following points.
1. It is easier to get your ass into the left seat in the US, It is cheaper and there is much more availability of aircraft, added to this is the fact that in the US you tend to deal with flying businesses who have a vested interest in making money and have no interest in being the King of their own little Castles. In this country you find yourself dealing for the most part with Flying Clubs, albeit with the best will in the world, doing their best and certainly appreciated, are not in the business of turning a profit and do all seem to inevitably get mired in internal politics.
2. Once you get yourself into the left seat in this country it is a significantly less challenging experience than most parts of the US.
Firstly traffic, The only significant traffic around these parts is heavy Jet Transports, and you will encounter them only at the larger airports, They spend very little time at the altitudes that GA is so fond of, and Irish ATC puts a 'no fly for little guys zone' around them whenever they take off or land. In Short conflicting traffic is not a significant factor in Ireland.
In the US however you will need to be on your toes regarding traffic at all times. they just have too many airplanes.
Secondly Airline pilots who fly from Europe to the US will tell you that they do not see huge difference between the IFR system in either place, for them this is true because of the equipment they fly and the procedures that they follow.
For the GA pilot flying IFR, Ireland and (Europe generally) is EASY compared to the US, although a proficent GA pilot will be following procedures similar to the airlines he has a significant deficit in equipment mostly in the form of a co-pilot. In short you can screw up a lot easier in the US with greater consequences. Therefore it takes a higher standard of airmanship to be successful in the US.
That said,has anyone out there converted an FAA IR to JAR IR and if so what are the requirements by the IAA.
I have converted FAA IR to JAA IR, but onto a British licence (JAA). As far as I could tell there is no conversion onto an IAA licence but there is onto the British one.
What specifically do you want to know?
Cosmic - I think we are going to totally confuse Zulu10
Zulu10 - the JAR/JAA licenses are a pan european licenses which are recognised by all EU countries. When Cosmic said he had a British JAA IR what he actually has is a JAA IR which was issued in the UK. His license is not a British License 'per se' but a european one. He could have done exactly the same license in France or Germany.
Zulu10 - the JAR/JAA licenses are a pan european licenses which are recognised by all EU countries. When Cosmic said he had a British JAA IR what he actually has is a JAA IR which was issued in the UK. His license is not a British License 'per se' but a european one. He could have done exactly the same license in France or Germany.
YoYo, The point I ws trying to make was that only a UK issued JAA CPL will allow you an hour reduction for a conversion from an FAA IR to a European IR. If you had done your ATPL writtens in Ireland and the CPL skills test and had an FAA IR the IAA would still require you to do a full IR.
If however as in my case I had done the ATPL writtens and the CPL tests under the UK system and having had an FAA IR I was entitled to a 15 hour conversion to a JAA IR.
Interestingly enough I could actually do the 15 hours with a JAA FTO in Ireland, and have the IAA conduct my exam, as the ISSUING authority was the CAA of the UK.
So just to repeat the answer to the question I think Zulu10 was trying to ask:
There is no conversion for the holder of an IAA licence holder, but there is for the Holder of a CAA licence holder. It must be noted that they are both JAA licences but they aren't quite the same after all!
If however as in my case I had done the ATPL writtens and the CPL tests under the UK system and having had an FAA IR I was entitled to a 15 hour conversion to a JAA IR.
Interestingly enough I could actually do the 15 hours with a JAA FTO in Ireland, and have the IAA conduct my exam, as the ISSUING authority was the CAA of the UK.
So just to repeat the answer to the question I think Zulu10 was trying to ask:
That said,has anyone out there converted an FAA IR to JAR IR and if so what are the requirements by the IAA.
There is no conversion for the holder of an IAA licence holder, but there is for the Holder of a CAA licence holder. It must be noted that they are both JAA licences but they aren't quite the same after all!
Thanks for your comments. Ok, I am the holder of a JAR PPL(A)/CPL(A) both issued by the IAA but I also hold a faa PPL/IR. Accordingly I cannot convert the FAA/IR to JAA/IR without doing the whole 50 hours again. However my understanding is that as the IR is a rating and not a licence that it could be completed in any other JAR state and not neccesarilly in the state where the original JAA licence was issued. Hense is it possible for the CAA for instace to accept my FAA/IR for conversion using the 15 hour course as mentioned?
Cosmic
"" The point I ws trying to make was that only a UK issued JAA CPL will allow you an hour reduction for a conversion from an FAA IR to a European IR. ""
Yes this line does confuse me!Please explain.
Cosmic
"" The point I ws trying to make was that only a UK issued JAA CPL will allow you an hour reduction for a conversion from an FAA IR to a European IR. ""
Yes this line does confuse me!Please explain.
However my understanding is that as the IR is a rating and not a licence that it could be completed in any other JAR state and not neccesarilly in the state where the original JAA licence was issued
Yes you are exactly right on that. Using myself as an example again, I did mine in Spain although I did a bit in Ireland too. I could have done it in any JAA state for that matter.
Hense is it possible for the CAA for instace to accept my FAA/IR for conversion using the 15 hour course as mentioned?
This is the critical point. The rating is "tacked on" for the sake of simplifying to your licence. The Licence and not the rating is the foundations. You have an IAA issued licence. The CAA can only "tack on" a rating to their own licence.
So lets say you did your IR in the Uk, you would have an IAA CPL (JAR of course) and an IR. There will be a small not on our licence to say that the rating was issued by the UK CAA.
So to sum that up, the only people who can have an hour reduction are holders of CAA issued JAR licence holders. This rating can be done in any country, but the CAA are the only ones who will allow their Licence holders an hours reduction. The IAA do not.
Its all very complicated, but keep asking questions its the only way you'll learn.