24hr PPR in EIKN

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Tailwind
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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by Tailwind » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:07 am

You can understand the thinking of the Knock ATC, with holding aircraft north or south of the field when line traffic is approaching. The skill level of each pilot is totally different and despite modern technology the location where pilots "are" and "claim" to be can vary. So a go around on an A320 will cost a fair few bob.

As for 24 hours PPR........I'd argue it's and in-efficient use of time and effort. If everyone calls 24 hours PPR, and then flies - that's fine. However, in 24 hours, weather forecasts/ actual weather changes, the kids get sick, granny can't mind the goldfish or whatever. I would suspect the amount of people who get up in the morning and either decide to go or cancel a trip is high. So now you've to call back the airport and cancel or simply not show up. And so waste their time and yours.

If you stick with 1/ or 2 hours notice, if the airport is busy - then they can just tell you they are busy - end of.

Yes I'll vote with Waterford also, it can be a busy circuit but the team are very relaxed and work with you. Again a quick phonecall in advance to let them know when to expect you is helpful. I don't believe I've ever been turned away despite the circuit being busy with students and line traffic.

But to be honest, do you really want to get that stuck in with regionals? A number of "Strips" are developing and really pleasant places to fly, Ballyboy - you can go to Trim or indeed fly into Trim.......do the two. Newcastle, Clonbollogue (another bunch who are very accommodating even when busy), Birr, Kilkenny. Supporting clubs who are making use of their facilities will help us all.

Cheerio
Tailwind

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by aviatorsguide » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:34 am

Waterford, Shannon, Cork, Kerry, Donegal all pretty good, and I've nothing bad to say about the rest of them either. No particular bone to pick with EIKN by the way. They are mostly friendly in that airporty-overstaffed-officialdom bubbly sort of way.

Yes PPR is good, but at a private airport. What more detail could they require over and above the flight plan content they have 1hr before your departure? They can even call you, to clarify any any queries. If there is no standard items not contained in the Notams/Met (which more and more people have instant access to with skydemon etc.) then if can be mentioned in the joining clearance. So I'm all for PPR, but in the right place. I very much consider Knock a Public airport and if you look at the levels of public funding that have gone into it.....

Wikipedia
On 21 February 2007, the Government of Ireland announced that it was giving €27 million of capital grant money to Ireland West Airport. The Airport stated that it would continue the implementation of its €46 million infrastructural investment programme with over €20 million of spend anticipated for 2008. Work commenced on a number of significant civil and building projects in this year. A €5.5 million extension to the terminal building was completed in April 2009. A extension to the apron which will see this more than double in size has commenced. The implementation of Category II Instrument Landing System (CAT II ILS) on runway 27, to enhance the reliability of the Airport in low visibility conditions, has been completed and approved. An extension to the Runway Ends Safety Areas (RESAs) and runway turnpad was completed in 2008. An additional "Development Fee" of €10 is charged to all departing passengers aged 12 years and over.

Perhaps I wear the green jersey more vehemently than most but being it's a bit like asking permission to use your own front room. The facilities, and amenities that exist in Ireland long pre date the bodies that seek to restrict their use. I've seen more good than bad come out of lobbying the establishment. Look at the great result the NMAI got with the recognition of licences & permits. Top class work, and they had a big fight to get it. Anything to prevent the erosion of privilege, then count me in.

:!:

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by Nidata » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:53 pm

aviatorsguide wrote: Perhaps I wear the green jersey more vehemently than most but being it's a bit like asking permission to use your own front room. The facilities, and amenities that exist in Ireland long pre date the bodies that seek to restrict their use. I've seen more good than bad come out of lobbying the establishment. Look at the great result the NMAI got with the recognition of licences & permits. Top class work, and they had a big fight to get it. Anything to prevent the erosion of privilege, then count me in.

:!:
Well said, and count me in too :)

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by Tolka » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:08 pm

The actual wording in the AIP for Knock (in the remarks section) is
PPR required in advance for all flights (24HR if possible)
. If you have to check the weather on the day I would argue that a shorter notice period was all that was possible given the vagaries of the Irish weather.

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by FH » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:07 pm

I flew into EIKN a few weeks ago and found the whole thing very pleasant since there many years ago! Very friendly staff,efficient and a grand cheap breakfast. Based on that I have every intention of returning.They inform me they are promoting GA so I will give them my support for the present.
FH

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by Tolka » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:36 pm

FH

Did you give them 24 hours PPR or were they happy with something less?

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by Pilot » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:38 pm

W,

Out of curiousity, did you get a reply from the marketing manger that you left a message for? Were they able to cast any light on things?

P

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by aviatorsguide » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:54 pm

Pilot - No reply from the marketing manager as of yet, and no missed calls. They have all my details as I have a landing card etc.

While some may find them friendly at certain level, I must say that ATC in there today were not that happy to accept us as IFR traffic/in IMC with their scheduled flights etc. Part of the problem IMHO may be they do not have a radar feed from EINN so they are merely guessing where people are in the class C. If I had to do a top of the pops for friendliness of ATC....

1) Waterford
2) Donegal
2) Shannon
3) Cork/Kerry =
4) Dublin/Weston
5) Sligo
6) Knock

I'd use London Information as a benchmark for how friendly ATC really should be. They've even gone as far as getting us the football final scores for pax, and regularly take phone messages and flightplans over the air. Not sure how that would go down here....

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by vanman » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:04 am

Tailwind wrote:But to be honest, do you really want to get that stuck in with regionals? A number of "Strips" are developing and really pleasant places to fly, Ballyboy - you can go to Trim or indeed fly into Trim.......do the two. Newcastle, Clonbollogue (another bunch who are very accommodating even when busy), Birr, Kilkenny. Supporting clubs who are making use of their facilities will help us all.

Cheerio
Tailwind
All of the above and to emphasise that Birr like Clonbullogue is very accomodating even though it's easily the busiest parachute dropzone in Ireland. Just call in good time and there is no problem. We have absolutely no problem fitting traffic around the skydivers. Which does make you wonder what the issue is with EIKN. Somehow the the 'big airport' mentality seems to change the attitude.

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by Demonduck » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:03 am

I Called ATC In Knock at 1pm last Saturday and told them I was flying in at 4pm the same day and I wanted to get PPR.
He said no problem and thanks for calling ahead and advising them.

Dont believe everything you read.

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by Aidoair » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:50 pm

I agree with most of whats been said , I learned to fly at EIKN ( when the weather was a little better than it has been ) and there was no PPR way back then . It sounds like EIKN controllers are making it sound like an airport about 10 miles away from me now ,KJFK in New York , in fairness , line traffic that brings in the $$$$ should get priority and yes I,ve looked at the chart for EIKN and the hold north and south of the field should be adequate traffic spacing at EIKN . Its not like theres a departure every minute there , sounds to me like EIKN is trying to stop GA from training there , which is sad if thats the case . Speaking about the published hold , every PPL or student with instructor SHOULD be able to fly the hold , hold the heading and start the stopwatch and correct for wind , standard rate turns and a 1 minute hold . As for 24 hour PPR , thats just stupid , its a main airport with a control tower operating from whatever hour to whatever hour , dont they ever use vectors or radials from the VOR , ATC should use the VOR/DME as an aid for traffic seperation as I dont think they have a Radar there yet . I fly at Republic Airport in NY , its 17 miles east of JFK controlled up to 2600ft msl at 4000ft the JFK Bravo airspace kicks in , talk about traffic seperation , Airbus A380 at 3500ft on the vector for JFK and Piper Archer on final at 1100 for republic , nobody panicing .!
Blue skies to all , hope you get some of the VFR we are getting now ..

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by RV BLUE » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:05 pm

Aidoair wrote: I fly at Republic Airport in NY , its 17 miles east of JFK controlled up to 2600ft msl at 4000ft the JFK Bravo airspace kicks in , talk about traffic seperation , Airbus A380 at 3500ft on the vector for JFK and Piper Archer on final at 1100 for republic , nobody panicing .!
Blue skies to all , hope you get some of the VFR we are getting now ..
Aidoair, living in the US, we have it good, but none the less it sure makes the system there look so idiotic and frustrating. I know how busy the airports are around New York and Philadelphia, and they all work fine, wait till ya get to Oshkosh.... :D

Happy Landings !!

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by Pilot » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:56 pm

The really annoying thing about it is that we should and could have a system like the US. Just like in the US ATC here , at least as I understand it, work directly for the regulator. So local politics and local commercial decisions shouldn't feature in ATCs mind when making controlling decisions.

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Look at it from the ATC side

Post by hum » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:26 pm

I think the problem is that controllers at regional airports in Ireland have the responsibility of managing Class 'C' airspace, often, as far as I understand it, without a radar picture. This effectively means procedural control which can be frustrating for VFR traffic.. I guess ATCOs are, understandably, nervous of an IFR airliner getting a TCAS alert from errant VFR traffic and filing a Mandatory Occurrence Report which could be bad for their career.. I believe the separation limits are 5 nm and 1000 ft, its easy to see this can be problematic when a light aircraft is dodging cloud at 70 kts while an airliner is making an approach at twice that speed..

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Re: 24hr PPR in EIKN

Post by Aidoair » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:50 pm

I hear you on the seperation of aircraft and the fact that ATC might be worried about seperating aircraft without being able to see any one on a screen . Would it not work if all VFR aircraft had to use the VOR at EIKN for their position reports , If the pilots /instructors know the VOR in the aircraft and the controller has the chart in the tower its very easy to instruct someone to (example) report on established on the 135 radial EIKN VOR at 15 DME , ETC , that way the EIKN controller and the aircraft are on the same page .
As for class C airspace , it must be different here in the USA than it is at home , Here you need 2 way communtication and a squak from the approach controller before you can go into class charlie . I know EIKN has no RADAR so I presume Class C is handled by EINN radar ?? . I have to admit , when I started flying here in the USA I thought they were all crazy but now its easy and when your cleared to land and your number 5 well thats the way it is , even when your number one at a mile final and a guy on the ground is cleared for take off and taxis onto the active and your on short final , well thats the way it is , no panic , just fly the plane he rotates , you flare .!!!! as for OSHKOSH , they land 3 at a time on the one runway ... EIKN , did you hear that , yep 3 at a time , 27-09 could handle 4 easy .!!!!!!

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