General Aviation Safety Council

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Higgie
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Re: General Aviation Safety Council

Post by Higgie »

Hi All
Padraig Higgins here. I am chairman of the subcommittee that was tasked by the National Aeroclub of Ireland (NACI) with setting up the meetings to investigate the establishment of a General Aviation Safety Council.
I'd like to take this chance to answer some of the questions raised in previous posts and hopefully stimulate some more debate. Aplogies if what follows is a bit rambling.
Needless to say when I refer to GA below,I refer to all aspects of General, Recreational and Sport aviation
Flange Bracket wrote
"Let get real here folks. The only reason this 'initiative' is happening is as a result of the findings of last years ICAO audit. The IAA were told to put a mechanism in place to deal with the general aviation community, hence the urgency in setting it up."
Almost 100% correct, but
Eamonn Brennan IAA CX approached the NACI well before the IAA audit was envisaged with a proposal to set up a council that would represent all of General Aviation. the NACI judged that due to the fragmented nature of general aviation and the inconsistent manner in which people and organisations were dealt with by the IAA then such an initiative was bound to failure.
Subsequently Mr Brennan, on seeing how the NMAI had got the support of its members and other organisations, asked the NMAI if they would be willing to try to pull everyone together to form a similar council. The NMAI apart from being busy fighting its own battles, decided that any such organisation needed to be set up under the guidance of the NACI or AOPA and therefore did not pursue the issue.

I'll quote Flange Bracket again
"Let get real here folks. The only reason this 'initiative' is happening is as a result of the findings of last years ICAO audit. The IAA were told to put a mechanism in place to deal with the general aviation community, hence the urgency in setting it up."
Absolutely true but for different reasons.
Apart from the fact that the setting up of a General aviation council was close to the heart of Mr Brennan and John Steel, the ICAO finding was enough to give those in the IAA who have an interest in General Aviation the push to overcome the hurdles and bulldoze the barriers they might encounter. For the same reason it led NACI to believe that as the IAA want this so badly, then it might provide an opportunity to resolve some of the long standing issues and problems that have existed.
It might also lead to the GA community being listened to and having an input into issues that affect us all.

Cub Pilot Says
"A point that bothers me about the safety meetings. that is they are organised by IAA no doubt on the instructions of a line manager."
Flange Bracket again
"Let get real here folks. The only reason this 'initiative' is happening is as a result of the findings of last years ICAO audit."
Not Quite correct.
The meetings were for the most part organised by the NACI. Those that weren't were organised at the request of the flying clubs with NACI's help.

Flange Bracket again
The IAA were told to put a mechanism in place to deal with the general aviation community, hence the urgency in setting it up.
Absolutely
The IAA do want this.
It also represents an opportunity or should I say a necessity for them to resolve some of the issues that affect us. It represents a great opportunity for them to start gaining the trust that they acknowledge is so severely lacking.
Anyone who was at the meetings held so far would have been surprised at the IAA's openness in acknowledging past mistakes and their promises to operate differently in future.
I believe that there is a real opportunity to make progress that to date eluded the NACI and the various representative organisations. For many years now the weakness suffered by the NACI was that it failed to represent the traditional GA(spam can) operator. This was not wholly the fault of the NACI. Several attempts were made to set up a representative body for GA. NAGA and NASRAv to name but two. These ran into the sand mainly as a result of lack of participation by the GA community. There exists a a perception, which was also evident at the meetings to date that GA participants do not need representation. This appears to be driven by the fact that a lot of participants operate CofA aircraft out of licensed fields using ICAO compliant licences.ie. their activities are regulated at a level above the IAA.
This is a wake up call.!!!
The growing concensus seems to be that G.A pilots will no longer be able to fly annex II aircraft after next april on an EASA licence. So forget about your Cubs,RV's,Austers,Jodels etc.
Effective representation through the council to get the IAA to issue an S.I. allowing you to fly these aircraft in Ireland is your only option. In fact, why not go one further and push the IAA towards agreeing a bilateral with the CAA to allow us to fly our annex II aircraft in each others airspace on our EASA licences.
The CAA actually appear to have no great problem with this but for us to do nothing and hope that we will be gifted something is tantamount to Whistling past the graveyard.
Kitty said
kitty wrote:“Jim” said something to me on phone last Month that really hit home, “The IAA have absolutely no chance in their present position to either create or run a successful safety council, this is because the full support of GA will need to be EARNED by them first instead of just “Netting” it, they have previously rejected the same people they are now looking for support from."
Anyone who has been at the meetings to date can tell you that this is recognised by the IAA team. John Steel has told us that when he retires in a couple of years that he wants his legacy to be that he was the one who led the push for a good working relationship between the IAA and the general aviation community and facilitated the setting up of the Council.
The IAA has made a lot of promises and if they start delivering on them it will be a good start in developing trust. Jonkil's post adresses this at length so I won't eat the same cabbage twice.
We have been asked "What is the rush"
Flange Bracket again
Flange Bracket wrote:We shouldn't be rushed into anything. The IAA have a deadline we don't.
[/quote][/quote]
The NACI and the IAA have from the start agreed that this process should take as long as it takes to get it right. However personally speaking my opinion is that we need to keep pushing it now while we have a head of steam. Also having a relatively short time line forces the IAA into starting to deliver on its promises and start building trust.

Jim Wrote
But what Irish GA don’t need is….
council set up solely to be displayed by IAA to ICAO.
Council set up which is going to fade into oblivion after a time span.
Council set up to “Trap” pilots for punishable offences.
Council controlled by ANY authority.
Council with any member having separate and/or superior standing.
Council that wanders into non-safety issues, (licences etc.)

HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO SAY IT.

The council will be set up by GA for GA.
If the majority of stakeholders vote not to set up the council, then it will not be set up.
If the majority of stakeholders vote that the IAA participate as members or observers then that is what will happen.
If the majority vote that this council will only be concerned with safety then that will be the case.
If the majority vote that this council be a representative council that has little or nothing to do with safety then that will be what happens.

Put Simply, Whether or not this council is set up, what it does and who is on it will be decided by you.
Whether it stays in existence or is disbanded will be decided by you.
It was never as important to have your voices heard because for the first time we have a prize that the IAA wants.

What next.
Send in your comments to the IAA. Copy them to gasci@aeroclub.ie.
Keep the discussion going at the flyins and on the forums, let us know what you think of the council and what it should do.
NACI propose to hold a day long (probably weekend)public meeting at the end of July or the Start of August at a central location(possibly Tullamore) to discuss setting up the council.
We ask everyone who is interested to attend.
If you cannot attend then you may make a written submission and nominate a proxy to vote on your behalf in the event of any vote being taken.
Keep yourself informed and continue to contribute to the debate.
All the best and safe flying
Higgie

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Re: General Aviation Safety Council

Post by jonkil »

As someone who attended the meeting and took the promises at face value I am somewhat at a loss to be quite a few months down the line and nothing heard since... FlangeBracket, your synopsis may be quite a bit more accurate than mine was, I really should have known better. Many promises made to the people at the Letterkenny meeting, promises like;
Listening to pilots before ruling or introducing new regulation
Using a more "on hands/information approach rather than a regulatory/enforcement approach
Making acceptance of other EU licences much easier
Time frames and turn around on queries/e-mails and phone calls
Informing the GA community of forthcoming regulation that could affect them.

What the hell is going on? What the hell has happened since? Has anything changed? Has the leopard even "tried" to change its spots? Or was this whole party trick an arse covering exercise on the heel of an un-satisfactory ICAO audit. By Jesus, the relationship will be really strained if they thought we would be taken for a ride with the series of "polished" presentations they gave.
Please, prove me wrong.

Jon

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Re: General Aviation Safety Council

Post by Raven 912 »

What a timely post Jon

The Aero Club will be hosting an informative meeting open to all stakeholders and interested parties on Tuesday the 27th of September, next Tuesday week, in the Bridge House Tullamore at 8pm.

We apologise for the short notice but the deadline for comment is currently the 30th of September.

We hope that as many of you can attend as possible and plan to review the GASCI meetings, promises made etc. Hopefully, following this meeting, a consensus might be reached on what to comment before the deadline.

We would appreciate if people who attended the GASCI meetings could forward their account of the meetings they attended including the promises made before this meeting to allow us to present an accurate picture of the current state of play.

Once again, apologies for the short notice.

All the best
Paul
President
NACI

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Re: General Aviation Safety Council

Post by Jim »

Ah! Jon,
Did you really expect any different?

I think it was Kitty who summed the IAA up in one word earlier...... Incompetent!

AOPA are still awaiting a promise made by them in early August 2010. What does that say?
We stand 100% behind our report to ICAO regarding their incompetence and failures and, are fully intent on a follow up shortly.

Paul,
I know some of our members have expressed their intention to attend this meeting if able, given the short notice, i may even be in attendance myself

Jim
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GASCI submission

Post by hum »

As I mentioned in another thread, here is the final submission to the IAA from the 'ad hoc' group that formed after the final GASCI 'pre-feasibility study' meeting held in Tullamore on 27 Sep last.

My thanks to the NACI for organising the meeting and to the group comprising volunteers from the following:

National Microlight Association of Ireland - NMAI http://www.nmai.ie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association - IHPA http://www.ihpa.ie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Model Aeronautical Council of Ireland - MACI http://www.maci.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Irish Light Aircraft Society - ILAS http://www.ilas.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Parachute Association of Ireland - PAI http://www.thepai.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Aircraft Owners and Pilots association of Ireland - AOPA Ireland http://www.aopaireland.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Paramotor / Powered Paragliding association of Ireland - PPG http://irelandppg.ie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Irish Sport Rotorcraft club - http://www.gyroflying.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Irish Gliding and Soaring Association IGSA - http://www.igsa.ie/site/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone can participate in this process, the final date for submissions is 17th Oct 2011.


A GENERAL AVIATION SAFETY COUNCIL FOR IRELAND
Background
General Aviation (GA) is normally accepted to include all forms of aviation outside scheduled air Transport and military flying. As such it encompasses a huge variety of aviation activity. National Authorities have a responsibility to engage with GA stakeholders and ensure that any activity is regulated and carried out with a reasonable degree of safety. Aviation regulation throughout Europe has been subject to unprecedented change in the past 10 years with the introduction of the Joint Aviation Authority. More change is to come with the change-over to EASA. The diverse nature GA and the constantly changing regulatory environment have led to a situation where communication between stakeholders and National Authorities is more important than ever to ensure that bad regulation is avoided and existing regulation is interpreted and applied sensibly. It should be universally accepted that regulations exist to enhance safety; however, over-regulation and the notion that ‘one size fits all’ is counter-productive. New regulations imposed for purely political reasons & that have no basis in enhancing safety – especially those that impose higher costs on GA - should be avoided if the credibility of regulatory authorities is to be maintained.

GASCI
The concept behind a General Aviation Safety Council of Ireland (GASCI) has been around in some form or other for many years. The IAA, in conjunction with various representative bodies in Ireland, proposed an outline structure whereby the various GA representative bodies would each have a member on a council to interface with the Authorities. A series of meetings facilitated by the National Aero Club of Ireland were held in early 2011 at which the case for a GASCI was discussed. A final meeting was held in Tullamore at which it was decided that 9 individuals from the representative groups present would form an ad-hoc contact group to initiate the GASCI process. The following is an initial outline of what these potential GASCI members would wish to see develop and is proposed as a starting point for the process:
AIM
The aim of the GASCI is to enhance the safety of GA in Ireland.
ORGANISATION
The GASCI concept is seen as an inclusive organisation that brings individual expertise to the council for the common good. Inclusive means that any individual or organisation concerned with GA can have access to the process, either through a group representative or as an individual participant. The format should start along the lines suggested by previously published documents; a core group of representatives and individuals from GA, the IAA and the AAIU who meet regularly. The suggested frequency of 2 meetings per annum seems right. This could be changed by agreement.

Communication :
The GASCI process should be transparent and it is proposed that a GASCI website with appropriate material be set up. Communication between council members outside meetings should primarily be by e-mail with updates on meetings and current issuers available on the website. GA stakeholders will be invited to input their concerns, contributions, stories, articles, lessons learned etc through the website, by e-mail or in person to individual council members. There are probably enough forums around already eg Flying in Ireland etc so a forum is not considered a priority initially...

Suggested Tasks:
Short term:
- Select date and time for 1st meeting – suggest IAA HQ on a mutually convenient date.
-Decide individuals to compose the Council – suggest those volunteers from Tullamore meeting + any others who feel they need to be involved and have a worthwhile contribution to make.
-- Elect Council Chairman, Secretary and any other posts deemed necessary..
- Set up website with 2 aspects to be managed, not necessarily by the same indivdual:
--Technical aspects
--Editorial/content aspects.
- Initiate confidential direct occurrence reporting system for GA
--This will need guarantee of anonymity
--Relevant incidents/occurrences need to be assimilated, edited & promulgated.
-- Suggest regular items on Website & monthly article in FII (I learned about flying from that etc)
-Establish funding issues, the IAA have reportedly offered to fund a Safety council.. will this include:
-- travelling & subsistence expenses for council members on GASCI business?
-- Website/administration costs?
-- publishing costs for posters/leaflets etc?
Long Term:
- Joint (IAA/GASCI) review of relevant regulatory documents (Sis, AICs OAMs etc. for accuracy, consistency, relevance, logic.) including study of EASA Vs JAA Vs ICAO Vs National regs.
- Run national GA safety seminars.
- Produce Irish versions of selected UK ‘Safety Sense’ flight safety leaflets.
- Identify and target accident and incident trends in GA sectors both at home and, if relevant, worldwide.

Gerry Humphreys GASCI stakeholder co-ordinator. 9 Oct 2011

Annex:

GASCI ‘Stakeholders’

All GA Pilot Licence holders (including fixed-wing, flex wing, rotary wing, balloon, glider etc)
All GA Aircraft owners/operators
Private Flying Club members
Commercial Flying School owners/managers
Gliding/parachuting/paragliding school owners & instructors & students
Airfield owners
GA Engineering organisations
ATC controllers & FISOs
FBOs at major airfields (Signature, Universal etc )
AOC holders

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Re: General Aviation Safety Council

Post by jonkil »

6 weeks since the consultation closed, any news?
Higgie, any updates?
Or is this one looking more like the typical IAA shenanigans they are famous for?
Many promises, little delivered.... Please tell us that it aint the same old, same old.... afraid to say it looks that way.

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Re: General Aviation Safety Council

Post by Raven 912 »

Hi Jon

No news yet but I was contacted by Declan Fitzpatrick to ask if I minded my name being published when they publish the comments. He was just getting everything together about 2 weeks ago. Copied below is the comment submitted by NMAI and NACI for your information

The Aims & Objectives of the General Aviation Safety Council of Ireland.

To inform, advise and negotiate on behalf of the membership of the individual aviation disciplines contained within the Council, with the Irish Aviation Authority and other relevant authorities on all matters affecting or liable to affect it's membership and the General Aviation community in general, including, but not limited to:

* Facilitating and encouraging it's members to formulate collective views on all aspects of General Aviation within the scope of safety and regulatory issues affecting it's membership.

* Making suggestions for the improvement of all such issues affecting it's membership and transmitting such suggestions to the Irish Aviation Authority and/or other relevant bodies.




The Functions of GASCI.

* To function as an advisory body to contribute to the development of National and International policies on all levels regarding General Aviation safety and related issues by liaising with, attending or making representations to aviation authorities and other relevant bodies.

* To obtain support, advice and information from all areas of expertise in respect of training, safety and regulation affecting the General Aviation community in general.
*Where a safety case exists, and is proven and agreed within the Council, to support the introduction of more appropriate regulation and, in some cases, a reduction in regulation for any particular area of General Aviation which falls outside of the remit of ICAO or EASA, the regulator should introduce the new regulation without further debate, consultation or unnecessary delay. This is especially true where the regulator holds a seat on the Council.

* To respond to consultations initiated by the Irish Aviation Authority and any other relevant bodies.
*To undertake to facilitate steps necessary to reach reciprocal agreements with other EU states, especially with our nearest neighbours the UK CAA, where no safety case can be shown against these agreements.
*To undertake to develop, monitor and update where necessary, a National Aviation Safety Policy.
*To recommend to the regulator delegation of certain duties to either the Council or individual representative bodies where it can be shown that the regulator has no expertise in these particular areas.
*To facilitate a General Aviation Occurrence Reporting System.

Note: It may be necessary to secure solid agreements with the regulator on some of the above items prior to the commencement of GASCI.



* To carry out such administrative activities as are necessary to perform it's functions.
The General Aviation Safety Council of Ireland may delegate all or any of it's functions or activities.
To facilitate such delegation, the council may establish a committee and/or sub-committees, with or without restrictions. Members of such committees must be a member of the General Aviation community in Ireland or active as a performer in the General Aviation area and must be elected to such committee by the General Aviation Safety Council of Ireland.

* The General Aviation Safety Council of Ireland shall convene at a minimum of twice yearly.

* The final decision of the functions of the General Aviation Safety Council of Ireland. shall rest with it's membership through the exercise of it's members democratic vote through their nominated representative.

To facilitate the practical function of the General Aviation Safety Council of Ireland, each discipline/representative body within the General Aviation community shall nominate one of it's membership to act as the said disciplines/bodies representative to the Council.



Membership of Gasci.*

Whilst being fully inclusive, it is essential that the size of the Council be limited to a minimum of 8 and a maximum of 15 members including 1 seat each reserved for the Irish Aviation Authority and the Irish Air Accident Investigation Unit in order to facilitate an effective working partnership.
* IAA and AAIU members shall attend in an observational capacity only and will not hold voting rights on the Council.
* Meetings to be convened with no less than 8 members present.

* All recognised disciplines/representative bodies within the General Aviation community shall have the right to representation on the General Aviation Safety Council of Ireland under the following conditions:
Disciplines/representative bodies shall be recognised by the Council, The National Aero Club of Ireland or the Irish Aviation Authority as legitimate body’s representative of their respective discipline/airsport.

Disciplines/representative bodies must produce audited numbers of fully paid up members of their discipline/representative body as evidence of their legitimacy to represent any particular discipline or airsport in order to satisfy the criteria for recognition to the General Aviation Safety Council of Ireland.

That each discipline/representative body nominate one person only from within it's membership as it's representative on the General Aviation Safety Council of Ireland.
Individuals wishing to be represented on the GASCI Council should be directed through their recognised representative bodies

That such elected representative shall have one vote only on all matters regarding the General Aviation Safety Council of Ireland.

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Re: General Aviation Safety Council

Post by Jim »

As far as AOPA are concerned, it does not make any difference what the IAA submit regarding comments received.
This is a GA Council, established (in a rushed state) by the GA, its members are the GA and is to be run by the GA. No mention of Aviation Authority there!

Unfortunately, having read some of the submissions concerning a request for comment, they read more like a constitution of operation rather than a "comment or expression of views", was this a waste?

The "Council" still has to meet yet to agree its constitution under which it will operate.
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Re: General Aviation Safety Council

Post by ParaBull »

Hi All,

My name is Paddy Bullman, I was opted on to the 'ad hoc' committee formed at the meeting in Tullamore on the 27th of September last, to represent the powered paraglider group. I am new to the forum, so I have only recently read this thread concerning GASCI. My personal impression of that meeting was that, although the purpose of the meeting was not necessarily to actually form the safety council, that this was indeed the actual outcome of the meeting. The assembly at the meeting did elect a 'committee' made up of representatives from what I gather is made up of most organisations within the general aviation community. Which I understood was the purpose of any eventual Safety Council in the first place, i.e. to represent the GA community in safety matters. Therefore, the 'Safety Council' does now exist! Or does it not?
I took part in the earlier meetings facilitated by NACI and IAA and was under the impression that this was an initiative by the IAA itself, that just such a safety council be created. I realise that the IAA itself was not opted onto the "GASCI Committee". But, was that then a 'condition' that the IAA required ? (i.e. that it should be represented on the committee). If so, they did not state these conditions.
Might I suggest that the 'ad hoc' committee of GASCI meet in the near future to discuss the next steps?

Yours Respectfully.
Paddy Bullman

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Re: General Aviation Safety Council

Post by Higgie »

HI ALL
Just published
http://www.iaa.ie/site_search.jsp?search_term=gasci" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

regards
Higgie

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Re: General Aviation Safety Council

Post by kitty »

The IAA suggest the next steps are:
1) Each organisation review the suggested GASCI structure outlined in this document and
decide, in principle, if they wish to participate in GASCI.
2) All organisations wishing to participate, including the IAA and AAIU, meet to expand and
agree the complete structure of GASCI. The IAA will contact the ad-hoc group (established
in Tullamore on the 27th September to coordinate the original response) to discuss a possible
meeting date. The meeting will use this document as the basis for discussion.
3) Publish a final version of this document outlining the agreed structure, terms of reference and
draft procedures of the council.
4) Seek the credentials of representative bodies /disciplines and their nominee for the council.
5) Seek nominees independent of any representative body for election to the council.
6) Establish date for the inaugural meeting of GASCI. Inaugural meeting shall be focussed on
the establishment of the detailed rules and procedures of the GASCI.
When the Baskets say they dont want to control it, the handles are usually fastened beforehand.
BEWARE!!
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GASCI Update

Post by hum »

Hi all, a very good meeting was held today with 9 GA representatives, 3 x IAA folk and a man from the AAIU bringing together a wealth of expertise from the broad spectrum of Irish General Aviation. A couple of GA reps could not make it, but will hopefully be along for the next meeting.

We have not 'formally' established the Council as yet, but are close to full agreement on the wording of a document to do so.

All were in agreement that the council should have as its aim:

'To Promote the safety of General Aviation in Ireland'

The next meeting will be on 12 March at 15:00 at IAA HQ.

So far we have representatives from or are in contact with the following organisations:

IGSA http://www.igsa.ie/site/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IHPA http://www.ihpa.ie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ILAS http://www.ilas.ie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NMAI http://www.nmai.ie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Irish Sport Rotorcraft Club http://www.gyroflying.com/faqs.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PAI http://www.thepai.ie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Irish Balloon Association http://www.irishballooning.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MACI http://www.maci.ie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AOPA Ireland http://www.aopaireland.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PPG Ireland http://irelandppg.ie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We would welcome participation from FTOs, AOC holders, FBOs, Maintenance Organisations or anyone else that feels they have a contribution to make to the aim 'To Promote the safety of General Aviation in Ireland'

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GASCI website

Post by hum »

http://gasci.weebly.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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