Logged hours toward keeping SEP current

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9205X
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Logged hours toward keeping SEP current

Post by 9205X » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:49 pm

I am trying to keep my SEP current which expires in Novemember. I have done 12 hours including 1 in Weston logged as PICUS, 4 in Florida logged as PUT (Brush up & Bienniel) the rest were logged as PICUS as I was flying, doing the radio and navigating and the instructor was up keeping me company. Do the hours logged as PICUS count towards the 6 PIC needed to keep current using currency method? I feel they should have been logged as PIC

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Re: Logged hours toward keeping SEP current

Post by Pilot » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:07 pm

9205x,

PICUS, in a GA context, are only used for a successful completion of a flight test.

In relation to the hour in Weston & FLA, it's a matter of what your flight duties actually were. Were you in command and have the final say over the flight, or was the instructor the one in command with the final decision on matter in the flight?

It sounds like you were actually receiving training rather than actually in command. It is always better to have agreed this with the instructor before hand. Rules are somewhat different in the USA, but here, if the instructor is logging PIC, then you can only log PUT.

Certainly any PICUS time left in your logbook, which isn't for a flight test, will be counted as PUT by the examiner renewing your class rating.

P

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Re: Logged hours toward keeping SEP current

Post by KeithT » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:07 pm

If there is an instructor on board, you cannot log it as PIC. As far as I'm concerned PICUS is only used when you successfully pass a skills test of some sort.

Plus, only one person can log the hours so I would expect the instructor did this and logged it as PIC..

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hum
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Re: Logged hours toward keeping SEP current

Post by hum » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:11 pm

I don't think the last post is strictly speaking true.... Here's one for the experts: :twisted:

Suppose one is doing simulated instrument flying... (perfectly normal VFR activity, AFAIK no-one needs to be an instructor, one simply needs dual controls in the aircraft). Both must be pilots qualified on type, the person manipulating the controls and the qualified pilot in the other seat are both required member of a multi-crew aircraft...

What do they log?

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Re: Logged hours toward keeping SEP current

Post by Rudy » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:18 pm

Hum,
If the aircraft is single pilot then the guy flying is P1, the safety guy is just a passenger.
Rudy

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hum
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Re: Logged hours toward keeping SEP current

Post by hum » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:13 pm

As far as I can see one is legally required to log time as a required crewmember of an aircraft...

Rules of the air SI:

13. Simulated Instrument Flight
(1) An aircraft shall not be flown under simulated instrument flight conditions unless:
(a) fully functioning dual controls are installed in the aircraft, and
(b) a pilot holding an appropriate licence occupies a control seat to act as safety
pilot for the person who is flying in simulated instrument flight.

SI 333 Personnel Licensing Schedule VII:

1. Logging of flight time in pilot’s Logbooks
Particulars of each flight during which the holder of a pilot logbook acted ... as
a member of the flight crew of an aircraft..... shall be recorded in the logbook at the end of each
flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable.

Also, an interesting interpretation from the USA by an FAA lawyer on this sort of thing here:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/hea ... 0Glenn.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


We really should get out more... :D

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Re: Logged hours toward keeping SEP current

Post by bumitch » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:20 pm

More inconsistencies between the SIs and JAR. Strongly suggest that JAR is the guidance of relevance.

See JAR FCL 1.001 Defintions and Abbreviations:

Dual instruction time:
Flight time or instrument ground time during
which a person is receiving flight instruction from
a properly authorised instructor.

Student pilot-in-command (SPIC):
Flight time during which the flight instructor
will only observe the student acting as pilot-incommand
and shall not influence or control the
flight of the aircraft.

Single-pilot aeroplanes:
Aeroplanes certificated for operation by one
pilot.

Multi-pilot aeroplanes:
Aeroplanes certificated for operation with a
minimum crew of at least two pilots.

Co-pilot:
“Co-pilot” means a pilot operating other than
as pilot-in-command, an aircraft for which more
than one pilot is required under the list of types
of aeroplanes (see Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL
1.220) or the type certification of the aircraft, or
the operational regulations under which the flight
is conducted, but excluding a pilot who is on
board the aircraft for the sole purpose of
receiving flight instruction for a licence or rating.

Pilot-in-command under supervision.
Co-pilot performing, under the supervision of the
pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a
pilot-in-command, provided that the method of
supervision employed is acceptable to the
Authority.

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What if...

Post by hum » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:43 pm

I think there are still inconsistencies within JARs (Does the JAA exist anymore? Who knows what will happen when EASA regs hit the streets :twisted: )

Lets say you are a PPL flying a single pilot aircraft (with dual controls) solely on instruments under a hood with another PPL next to you acting as PIC... what would you say each should log while this is happening?

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Re: Logged hours toward keeping SEP current

Post by MHRCRO » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:53 am

I believe Life Spport was turned off the JAA 30 June 2009

Their sole-codes now administered by EASA - until superceded as some already have been

I don't believe the Safety Pilot is a flght crew member - he is the eyes of the P1 under the hood, conveying info to him by speech, and perhaps, by control movement, as may be necessary

Best cheer

Maurice

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Re: What if...

Post by bumitch » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:38 pm

hum wrote: Lets say you are a PPL flying a single pilot aircraft (with dual controls) solely on instruments under a hood with another PPL next to you acting as PIC... what would you say each should log while this is happening?
Well I have a relatively simple view of the world. There are a couple of things here.

1. In a single pilot aircraft (most single engine trainers and tourers) there can only be one PIC, so the pilot without the hood must be the PIC when flying under VFR.

2. The pilot under the hood is unquestionably in a training situation (assuming he/she does not hold an instrument rating). He cannot be any form of PIC under VFR, and so the two options left per the JAR categories I outlined above are Student Pilot in Command, or Dual. Given that you have said that both pilots have PPLs, than there is only one appropriate category remaining i.e. Dual.

If it were the case that the PPL under the hood also holds an instrument rating and is just practising, then no issue arises - the hood pilot is PIC, and the other pilot a normal passenger. But then the flight should be conducted under IFR.

3. Another consideration is that given the training nature of the flight, the first scenario probably should only occur when the PIC (not under the hood) has an instructor rating.

I take the point about EASA, but also consider that this will likely build on the JAR definitions. Also, I am neither instructor nor IAA, so an arbitrary interpretation of whatever JAR, SI or other regulation to meet some particular need may well be possible.

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Re: Logged hours toward keeping SEP current

Post by Pilot » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:43 am

I see no reason why the pilot under the hood can't be PIC. This situation is specifically allowed for under JAR, and simply requires a safety pilot to be present.

However I can't see why the safety pilot would log anything. They aren't in command if the final decision with everything rests with the pilot under the hood. They aren't receiving trainging so can't log PUT.

They could log it as "safety Pilot" or something else, but it wouldn't count towards anything.

P

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