New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

This is a forum for discussing General Aviation in Ireland

Moderator: mark

Balkanhawk
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:44 pm

New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by Balkanhawk »

Interesting article on the proposed new rules.

http://m.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/201 ... _id=ebrief

Would there be much of an issue in Ireland?

MHRCRO
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:02 am

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by MHRCRO »

Oh Yes! There will most certainly be issues for us in Ireland

The AOPA site you have identified assumes that use of an FAA licence will not be usable in Europe on aircraft of ANY register.

I don't believe that is what is at stake

What it is about is that European Authorities, Training Establishments, Support Organisations, have lobbied EASA to the effect that us Europeans can go to USA, complete a cheaper simpler PPL (or better) training course and then return to Europe, able (probably) to use the licence on EU registers without formality

This is exctly as things OUGHT to be

Now European interests inevitably are looking for 'protection' No-one claims there is a safety issue

I believe there are two critical issues in the

ICAO gives its States the right not to recognise licences given to its 'Nationals' buy other States

Each contracting State reserves the right to refuse to recognize, for the purpose of flight above its own territory, certificates of competency and licenses granted to any of its nationals by another contracting State (Article 32)

So they don't need Special Authority to do it!

There is also the situation that FAA CPL and PPL licences may not be ICAO - and therefore amenable to easy validation

(Medical standards differ and FAA do not attest on the licences that they are ICAO compliant)

What is going to happen?

My guess would be that the matter will be parked

U,S. opposition might well be backed up by retaliation under FAR Part 129

Maurice

RV BLUE
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 593
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:20 am
Location: WestamptonNJ. USA

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by RV BLUE »

From AVweb

New European Rules Target U.S. Pilots, Aircraft

AOPA says a new regime of rules proposed by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) "has potentially devastating implications for the U.S. general aviation manufacturers and for the U.S. flight training industry." EASA intends to adopt a wide-ranging series of amendments to rules that appear to particularly affect those holding U.S. pilot certificates and aircraft registered in the U.S. but resident in Europe. "It would render FAA pilot certificates and instrument ratings issued to pilots living and operating in Europe (including U.S. citizens based in and flying in Europe) effectively worthless, requiring them to essentially start over and retrain and recertify," AOPA spokesman Chris Dancy told AVweb. "It would also eliminate any advantage to owning and operating an N-number-registered aircraft in Europe."

There are an estimated 10,000 pilots in Europe flying under U.S. certificates. Many of them got their training in the U.S. and a lot of flight schools cater specifically to European students. U.S. manufacturers will be hit from two directions. The rules will make U.S.-built aircraft "more difficult and expensive to own and operate," and therefore less attractive in Europe, a key market for most U.S. manufacturers, Dancy said. "And on that side of the Atlantic, it could mean a glut of N-number-registered aircraft being dumped on the market, further depressing used aircraft sales." AOPA has contacted members of Congress, the FAA and Department of Transportation to make sure they're aware of the issue. It's also supporting European aviation groups in their attempts to stop the action.

Balkanhawk
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by Balkanhawk »

Interesting, out of curiosity what the status of JAA licences and aircraft in the US?

Pilot
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 602
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by Pilot »

Balkanhawk wrote:Interesting, out of curiosity what the status of JAA licences and aircraft in the US?
1. A JAA licence can be swapped for an FAA PPL Airman's certificate as a paper exercise. (IR swap will require a written exam).

2. As I understand it, a JAR licence can be used on an EU reg aircraft in the US without formaily (unless flying in or out of the USA, where it need to give a notification for that flight).

P

User avatar
Jim
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:28 pm
Contact:

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by Jim »

In effect Europe is sending a message to pilots outside of Europe (i.e. USA, Australia, Canada etc.) that they are no longer considered safe enough to fly here. What is absurd about theproposal is that it validates such licences but only for one year.
EASA, in its opinion to the Commission is suggesting that from 2012 anyone who is domiciled in Europe can only fly if they have a valid European licence.
There are more than 10,000 Europeans holding a third country licence and in order to continue flying they will need to convert to the EASA Part FCL Licence post implementation (April 2012) of the new system. The financial impact will be huge particularly for those who hold an Instrument qualification. They will have to re-sit a number of exams and do a flying course prior to being confirmed as ready to take the flight test. The work of FCL 008 may introduce some changes but this part of FCL is expected to follow on after the main licensing rules become law in Europe - this is unsatisfactory.

EASA has not provided any safety justifications for these proposals which deviate significantly from the existing rules. Part of the rule making process requires EASA, by law, to produce a Regulatory Impact Assessment (RIA) to support their opinion. It is unclear as to whether or not these costs and therefore social impact have been properly considered.

Congress refuses to accept a solution, So too, does EASA!
AOPA worldwide has lobbied their EASA and Congress representatives individually.
I personally sent a draft to Irelands representatives before the EASA meeting this Month, on behalf of AOPA-Ireland.
We are attempting to establish a mutual agreement between all concerned.
Unfortunatly, EASA seem to be "Barnstorming" a delicate situation, one in which they believe they may gain financially in, and they may!
Their goal is to stop the the influx of "Outside" licences on the cheap! This could have been done in other measures.
If they continue on the present heading......They could be very surprised by the outcome!
Defending the rights of GA in Ireland.
http://www.aopa.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
hum
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 596
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:28 pm
Location: Co Limerick
Contact:

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by hum »

Everyone should read and digest this, one of the most compelling common sense articles I have seen:


http://www.pilotundflugzeug.de/artikel/ ... ety_Record" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Balkanhawk
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by Balkanhawk »

Very interesting article, I never realised the systems were so different.

Rudy
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:10 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by Rudy »

It's an interesting problem. Maybe we should forget about all arguments other than money. If N reg aircraft were more expensive to maintain and fly then few people would operate them. If EASA slaps on European maintenance requirements then that sorts that one out. More work for EASA companies and less of a drain to the US. It's not uncommon in the motoring world. Irish residents can't drive foreign reg vehicles or they'll get nicked. Then when we import them the first thing we must do is an Irish "C of A" ie NCT regardless of how good the foreign MoT is. Ireland wants to control its own patch and keep the money.
So does EASA.
Sounds reasonable to me.
Rudy

User avatar
Jim
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:28 pm
Contact:

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by Jim »

Sounding reasonable does not always make it so!

EASA has cited the changes as a "Safety Issue".
That same A/C that is flying today will not be considered safe next year because the owner is domiciled in Europe, How reasonable is that?
This would flood the market with N Regd. aircraft for sale, but no one will want them because they may be flown only in the USA! but even if you purchased one, how would you get it over there?
You = JAR license, A/C = N Reg!

But! the above is only the A/C Issue, The License is a much bigger issue (in quantity)
FAA licenses with be granted a Years "Grace" within the EU to allow time to retrain for JAR ones.
There is no allowances being made for holders with thousands of Hours logged!
Ireland is home to many in this situation and, it is an unacceptable one.

If EASA could prove by survey or scale that this was indeed a "Safety Issue" we would all gladly agree that it was reasonable, However they have not, because they can not!
Defending the rights of GA in Ireland.
http://www.aopa.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cubpilot
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:38 am

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by cubpilot »

1) My N reg aircraft is inspected once a year by a maintenance organisation that holds EASA/Dutch licenses and FAA certification, it costs 350 Euro for the inspection provided I do the graft to get it fit for inspection. If it was on any European register the basic cost would end up in a four figure sum due to the excessive paperwork.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE ACTUAL WORK DONE ON THE PLANE. I defy any authority in Europe to claim that their system is in any shape or form safer because of a paper trail. I would add that I am a trained engineer with 20 years experience in operating ocean going ships and 30 years in maintaining and operating my own and other peoples aircraft and so do not fall for the codswallop put forward by many surveyors that only know the rule books.
However at this stage EASA and aviation authorities are not attacking the ownership of N reg or other non EU reg planes but watch this space as I am sure they are hell bent on protectionism
2) As I understand it EASA is attempting to stop pilots with FAA and other non EU only licenses flying in Europe on a permanent basis. not people with piggy back licenses that have added the extra to cover the use of non EU planes.
In that EASA is primarily concerned about airline/ commercial operations one has to ask if a) there are commercial pilots flying for airlines or other commercial operators that hold only non EU licenses and b) have there been any problems with these pilots on safety issues.
If the answer to both a and b is yes then there could be a case for EASA making this proposal.
However if there are no commercial pilots that only hold non EU licenses working full time in Europe then one has to view EASA actions as pure protectionism and as a campaign against general aviation operations obviously in a misguided attempt to fund their own and training organisations coffers.
Sadly few MEPs (as with most politicians) have the interest or ability to understand the details of this problem and so I very much doubt if any lobby group will prevent the jack boot of the EASA staff stamping on the little man.

User avatar
Jim
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:28 pm
Contact:

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by Jim »

cubpilot wrote: 1) I defy any authority in Europe to claim that their system is in any shape or form safer because of a paper trail.
EASA has authority to make safety regulations and nothing more!
However at this stage EASA and aviation authorities are not attacking the ownership of N reg or other non EU reg planes but watch this space as I am sure they are hell bent on protectionism
As you own a non EU regd. A/C and, obviously an FAA license, you will be offered 12 months validation to allow for Training and Transfer to JAR license, after the 12 Months what happens to your aircraft?
2) As I understand it EASA is attempting to stop pilots with FAA and other non EU only licenses flying in Europe on a permanent basis. not people with piggy back licenses that have added the extra to cover the use of non EU planes.
In that EASA is primarily concerned about airline/ commercial operations one has to ask if a) there are commercial pilots flying for airlines or other commercial operators that hold only non EU licenses and b) have there been any problems with these pilots on safety issues.
If the answer to both a and b is yes then there could be a case for EASA making this proposal.
The answer to both is NO!
Sadly few MEPs (as with most politicians) have the interest or ability to understand the details of this problem and so I very much doubt if any lobby group will prevent the jack boot of the EASA staff stamping on the little man.
Said Goliath to David!
The retaliatory impact of this situation could cost EASA and others very dearly, from the very top to the basic JAR pilot.
Defending the rights of GA in Ireland.
http://www.aopa.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cubpilot
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:38 am

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by cubpilot »

Jim, you forget that many who own non EU reg planes actually have EU licenses as their primary license and so how can they need retraining?

bumitch
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:56 pm

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by bumitch »

This smacks of yet another aviation regulatory authority seeking to bolster its fiefdom - only this time it's a European wide one rather than a national one.

Time and again the vested interests in Europe put out the fallacious claim that those who train in the US cannot possibly know how to fly - completely disregarding the fact that the US is the home of modern aviation in most respects.

The article referenced by hum above is excellent in evaluating the safety record of German GA versus the US. It should be relatively easy for those with access and resources to extend the comparison Europe wide - why doesn't AOPA do this?

The flight schools and FTOs in Europe must be smacking their lips at the thought of all that additional training revenue that may be coming their way. One would wonder the extent to which these establishments are promoting this in an otherwise slim market.

User avatar
Jim
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:28 pm
Contact:

Re: New EASA rules for FAA licence and aircraft

Post by Jim »

cubpilot wrote:Jim, you forget that many who own non EU reg planes actually have EU licenses as their primary license and so how can they need retraining?
Not quite! when this article first emerged, i asked the 17 FAA license holders that i know of about their alternatives. Only one of them also held a JAR license.
Its not me who stated they need retraining, it's EASA, and it only NON JAR license holders.

There has been many warnings about a backlash, here's another....
Stephane Mayer and Nicholas Chabbert (respectively CEO of Daher/Socata, and president Daher Socata USA) made it very clear that Socata could be forced to stop their operations in Europe if this goes through (manufacturing of the TBM’s). They warned about the economic repercussions and about job losses.
Defending the rights of GA in Ireland.
http://www.aopa.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post Reply