Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

This is a forum for discussing General Aviation in Ireland

Moderator: mark

hedgehopper
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:49 am

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by hedgehopper »

the uk caa are a rock of common sense. there attitude towards microlights seem to be " why get a heavy goods vehicle licence if your just gonna drive a car " ! im not quite sure what the comparables are like in the rest of europe regarding training ( and it would be great if someone could post what other european countrys do ) but i do know in france with there system , the instructor can sign you off depending on your ability so if your a quick learner you could be signed off at say 10 hours .

one thing i forgot to mention in my last post , the study material for uk nppl consisted of one book "microlight pilots handbook" by brian cosgrove and contained all you needed to pass your exams , all in 168 pages. the gst was carried out by the cfi so no waiting around for weeks and losing hard earned skills .

i know the nmai are fighting hard for a lowering of minium training hours but i havent heard any mention regarding a change to the syllabus or flexability of exams, all these changes are needed if training schools down here are to be competitive against our european neighbours . im all for keeping business in our country , i wish the IAA thought the same, and yes i tried the irish system,it didnt make sense to me and im sorry to say i had to leave my own country to do a microlight licence and take business away from irish schools, there good guys stuck with a crap system enforced by the IAA .

falco
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:06 pm

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by falco »

Hi again pilot. Glad the explanation above was of some help.
So the only question remaining really is, is the UK micro training stds (eg 25 hours training, medical declaration) unique in the rest of Europe, or the norm?
To the best of my knowledge 25 hours is typical though others are lower. That said, it is important to always ensure that you are comparing "like with like" and that we are talking about the minimum permitted figure. An example is France, where the minimum is 20 hours. However, this could get you a licence but does not allow you take passengers. And, as hedgehopper says above their system is based on demonstrated competence, rather than the meeting of formal requirements. They are heavily into personal responsibility too. So they are very practical.

hedgehopper
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:49 am

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by hedgehopper »

the frence seem to be very informal regarding minium hours but my post regarding getting signed off at 10 hours is probebly a bit tabloid ! i did my uk nppl in france and a paramotor pilot did a conversion to microlight under the french system in 10 hours, his instructor said "pahh u fly better than moi "and was signed off, his paramotor experience stood to him.

i myself was 1 and half hours short of an unrestricted licence and bmaa accepted my irish hours and gave me my unrestricted , i wonder would the same happen in reverse ?

Pilot
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 602
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by Pilot »

Thanks guys. You've helped to explain the system and what the NMAI are trying to fight for. It's a pity that they couldn't explain these issues themselves.

The only thing there that doesn't make that much sense to me is a reduction in the theory sylabus. For example there shouldn't be any less airlaw to be learnt for a microlight than a JAR SEP class aircraft (except perhaps lights at night!). Likewise I couldn't see a reason why there would be less education needed in navigation or human factors for example.


But the recognation of foreign licences, reduction in the minimum number of hours of training, easier access to written exams, and lower fees all make sense.

Thanks for explaining it for me. I know very little about microlight training, as I've not been exposed to it at all.

Thank you.

P

falco
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:06 pm

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by falco »

No problem pilot. It is easy to help someone who asks questions and wants the answers!

Higgie
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:15 pm

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by Higgie »

Pilot
Just a quick clarification. The NMAI has never asked for a reduced theoretical requirement for examinations.
What we have been asking for is a syllabus that is suited to our requirements. If we wanted a one size course fits all pilots, maybe we should be trying to get the ppl(A) to focus on two stroke engines,rigging of flexible wings, limitations of a microlight aircraft permit to fly, theory of flight for Rogallo type wings etc,etc.
I suppose the point I am making is that Microlights are not small class A aircraft no matter how similar some of them look. Any one who tries to fly one on that basis is about to get a very quick and probably very short lesson on the interaction between drag and kinetic /potential energy.
What the NMAI is trying to achieve is sensible regulation that is appropriate to our sport. We would also wish to have these rules applied consistently and fairly without having our paperwork lost or mislaid. We would also like to see our members treated as customers rather than nuisances by our Aviation Authority.
If anything we achieve has a positive knock on effect for other forms of recreational aviation then of course we would be delighted.(witness the UK CAA extending to the GA fraternity the ability to conduct training from approved rather than licensed fields. This is a direct consequence of their positive experience of microlight training)
As to the lack of information from the NMAI directly I think it may have to do with the workload.
If you fancy a go and are around dublin/meath/kildare send me a pm. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how it will inexpensively and safely open up little Airfields which are not practical to visit in a G.A. type Aircraft

hedgehopper
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:49 am

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by hedgehopper »

thanks for the clarification higgie. and credit where credit is due to padraig higgins, paul mcmahon and nmai committee , the detail of your workload would take a barrister to unravel. so i dont envy your workload but greatly appreciate your commitment to the sport .

User avatar
hum
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 596
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:28 pm
Location: Co Limerick
Contact:

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by hum »

Higgie wrote: Microlights are not small class A aircraft no matter how similar some of them look. Any one who tries to fly one on that basis is about to get a very quick and probably very short lesson on the interaction between drag and kinetic /potential energy.
Many aircraft are produced in both 'microlight' (ie sub 450kg) and 'non-microlight' vesrions... often the only difference is paperwork. Obviously weight-shifts are a totally separate issue, but I disagree with the thesis that Microlights are somehow not 'small class A' aircraft. Of course they are! They operate on exactly the same principles, using exactly the same controls and techniques as other light aircraft. Obviously some microlights handle differently to, say, a factory produced class A trainer, however, many 'microlights' are in fact very high performance complex light aircraft requiring significant training and currency to operate safely. One that springs to mind has a fully feathering VP prop, spoilers, flaps, ballistic parachute and as complex an avionics suite as you are likely to find in many business jets. Another is aerobatic and has a retractable undercarriage.

What I am getting at is that proper training and currency is required whatever you fly.

I would like to see us adopt not only a similar system to the UK NPPL(M), but also something along the lines of the UK NPPL(A) as well. The latter was tried in vain by a group of very highly respected and experienced Light Aviation people some years ago who foresaw the problems with JAA for light & recreational aviation.

A related matter that always puzzled me is the bizzare situation in Ireland (and only in Ireland I believe) whereby a PPL(A) holder can fly, say, a Eurostar if it is a 'group A' aircraft, but not if it is classed as a microlight. I fail to see why a PPL(A) holder cannot be allowed to fly any light aircraft with conventional controls. The druine turbulent has a max auw of less than 450kg; I can fly that on a PPL; yet somehow another aircraft classified a 'microlight' simply because it weighs less than 450kg needs a different licence.. :roll:

Finally, I believe that the national insistence on a JAA class 2 medical for everyone that flies light and recreational private aircraft is completely OTT. If someone is medically fit to drive a bus or a juggernaut on our roads I believe the same medical standard would be more than adequate to apply to someone flying a private recreational light aircraft.

jm2833530
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 11:29 am

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by jm2833530 »

hum wrote:
A related matter that always puzzled me is the bizzare situation in Ireland (and only in Ireland I believe) whereby a PPL(A) holder can fly, say, a Eurostar if it is a 'group A' aircraft, but not if it is classed as a microlight. I fail to see why a PPL(A) holder cannot be allowed to fly any light aircraft with conventional controls. The druine turbulent has a max auw of less than 450kg; I can fly that on a PPL; yet somehow another aircraft classified a 'microlight' simply because it weighs less than 450kg needs a different licence.. :roll:

Finally, I believe that the national insistence on a JAA class 2 medical for everyone that flies light and recreational private aircraft is completely OTT. If someone is medically fit to drive a bus or a juggernaut on our roads I believe the same medical standard would be more than adequate to apply to someone flying a private recreational light aircraft.
Its a genuine pity that IAA cannot fail like you do hum! They are afraid to step out on a limb as they see it; we see it as them failing to perform their sensible duty to those of us who take a calculated risk together with a responsible attitude. They dont see the difference between protecting the non flying public on terra firma as against the more have-a-go members of society whose adventure appetite is the opposite of their nannying stance.

Its one thing to protect the spectators in a rugby game, but if you want to get into a scrum with a herd of bull shaped men then its literally your own neck. At least until you are a permanent burden on the health service as a quadraplegic. Same for all sports. The dangers we pose to the general public are greater on the face of it, except that statistics do not bear this out. There are other activities out there much more a threat to the general public than ours, that are less severely regulated, chicken licken all over again (sigh) I guess people dont like the idea of heavy objects falling from above.

So is there any way to call them on the huge disparity of requirements imposed on us compared to much of the regulations in the rest of civilisation? Thats whats needed. The supervision of the risk-takers in society by the less courageous is at the heart of it. They probably see us an foolish risk-takers that need their fatherly restraint.

Higgie
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:15 pm

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by Higgie »

Hi HUM
What I am getting at is that proper training and currency is required whatever you fly.
Thank you.
NMAI policy in 1 sentence

Information post from NMAI being worked on as we speak
Regards

stovepipe
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 9:54 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by stovepipe »

Hi there,
If the NMAI could actually get all of their membership to do even the theory exams, I'd be happy.I've met quite a few microlighters whose knowledge of, in particular, meteorology and aircraft performance left a lot to be desired.
regards
Stovepipe

falco
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:06 pm

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by falco »

I've met quite a few microlighters whose knowledge of, in particular, meteorology and aircraft performance left a lot to be desired.
Is this not rather off the subject of the "Statement clarifying ...." title and post at the top of this discussion thread?

In other words, as a member of the NMAI, I do not choose to respond to the insult deliver to all NMAI members, as "all of the membership" were identified in the post above.

If I congratulate stovepipe - as I do - on his superiour knowledge might he perhaps respond by either sticking to the subject, or keep his silence?

jonkil
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:59 am
Location: Donegal. VFR Flight Guide IRL Page 131
Contact:

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by jonkil »

stovepipe wrote:Hi there,
If the NMAI could actually get all of their membership to do even the theory exams, I'd be happy.I've met quite a few microlighters whose knowledge of, in particular, meteorology and aircraft performance left a lot to be desired.
regards
Stovepipe
That's a very generalising and sweeping statement !
What in particular makes you think they haven't done exams?
If they have a licence they have done the exams, Done to an IAA or a world recognised CAA standard.
As in any walk of life you will find peoples knowledge varies and their inherent ability to recollect things vary enormously, to suggest that an organisation should ask ALL it members to sit exams is complete lunacy.
Many of us have 1000's of hours and travelled throughout Europe, a lot of them in open cockpit flexwings, that fact on its own shows grit and determination and something you don't learn in books. I have met many microlighters who shouldn't be flying, I likewise have met many GP A pilots who shouldn't be let into the same parish as an aeroplane, to say they should go and sit exams is the last thing they would need, learn to fly the damn thing should be higher on their priorities.
Most people who can read chapter and verse from a book and quote the rules/regs and assorted stuff dont make a pilot at all and will have a dozen hours a year in their logbooks and be the most dangerous type of pilot you could ever meet, a statement pops to mind, "Those who can do, those who cant teach"
Don't stick your beliefs to microlight pilots in general, you will find that it is more widespread in all facets of flying than you envisage. A lot of pilots treat the microlight fraternity with contempt, the "bottom of the barrel" type of flyer, your statement reinforces this train of thought, if you take time to look at microlighting in depth you will find folk flying 2ooo euro aircraft to 100000K microlights and all in between, the one thing you will find is camaraderie not found elsewhere and microlighters don't look down their nose at any other pilots, if it fly's then it deserves to be there.

Jon
Last edited by jonkil on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hedgehopper
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:49 am

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by hedgehopper »

thats it stovepipe, go poke the devil with a big stick !
anyone who has done the exams will know its the important stuff that sticks in yer head and you go back to the books to clarify other points . if we all tried to learn chapter and verse we wouldnt have time to fly.....

Pilot
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 602
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Statement clarifying NMAI position on picket of Aviation Hou

Post by Pilot »

Higgie wrote:If you fancy a go and are around dublin/meath/kildare send me a pm. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how it will inexpensively and safely open up little Airfields which are not practical to visit in a G.A. type Aircraft
Thanks Higgie,

That is very kind of you.

pm on it's way.

P

Post Reply