Contrasts CAA-IAA

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hugoj_air
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Contrasts CAA-IAA

Post by hugoj_air »

Not so long ago the CAA seemed to be a bit anti light aviation, well certainly not anymore. In fact they now seem to be bending over backwards to accomodate the LAA in their request for a more lenient outlook on some light aircraft training. Excellent responce from the CAA. I wonder if our own IAA could read this and realise just what can be achived by reasonable contact with the groups here in the Republic who run the different sections of light aviation on their behalf.
Or is it a another case of flying pigs??

Hugo.



Date: 19 February 2010

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has announced that, subject to a change to the Air Navigation Order (ANO) planned for Spring 2010, flying training will be allowed to take place at unlicensed aerodromes.

Once the change to the ANO has been made by the Department for Transport, flight training at unlicensed airfields will be possible for fixed-wing aircraft up to 2,730kg Maximum Take-Off Mass (MTOM) and Helicopters and Gyroplanes up to 3,175kg MTOM.

The responsibility for ensuring an airfield is fit for training will be taken on by flying instructors and aerodrome operators. To assist them the CAA will be revising its document, CAP428 Safety Standards at Unlicensed Aerodromes, to include guidance on how to assess whether an airfield is suitable for training.

The decision follows a recommendation from the UK General Aviation community, a full public consultation in April 2008, and an analysis of the safety record of flight training in the UK. This concluded that there was no justifiable safety case to require flight training to be undertaken from a licensed airfield.

A further legal change will amend Rule 5 of the Rules of the Air to allow the practising of approaches to landing at an unlicensed aerodrome being used for training, as practise approaches are not currently allowed at unlicensed aerodromes.

Ray Elgy, Head of Licensing and Training Standards at the CAA’s Safety Regulation Group, said: “I’m pleased that we’ve been able to agree a change to the ANO to allow flight training at unlicensed airfields. All the safety data and evidence suggests that there is no justifiable case to require a licensed aerodrome for this task.

“This is a good example of the CAA following the principles of better regulation. We responded to a request from industry and, once we were content that safety levels could be maintained, removed a piece of regulation.”

Until the change to the legislation has been made the regulation requiring flight training to take place at a licensed airfield remains in place. Once the Government completes the change the CAA will issue notification to the GA community.

The CAA recommends that any flight training organisations or aerodromes seeking to take advantage of the change should consult the CAA’s Letter of Intent covering the subject which is available here
For more information contact Jonathan Nicholson at the CAA Press Office on 020 7453 6027.
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captain slow
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Re: Contrasts CAA-IAA

Post by captain slow »

Seems like a good idea. Logically there shouldnt be any reason why training couldnt take place from an unlicenced airfield. Common sense would dictate that as long as the aircraft was suited to the runway and its environment, and a qualified instructor was conducting the training then everything would be the same as operating from a licenced airfield.

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Re: Contrasts CAA-IAA

Post by MCRO »

But it is so, so, simple

If something happens to call into question something in the licensing standard at an ICAO Annex 14 Licensed field in Ireland,the matter is deflected to ICAO

If something of this nature happens at an unlicensed field being used under an IAA relief-from-ICAO scheme then the buck remains in Hawkins Street - and it is a very genuine difficulty.

Maurice

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Re: Contrasts CAA-IAA

Post by alphaLaura »

I really cannot see something like this being adopted by the IAA. It would be too good to be true.

But, if it could happen, it would be interesting to see the level of competition arising between established flight schools and clubs and individual instructors offering training from unlicensed fields.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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stovepipe
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Re: Contrasts CAA-IAA

Post by stovepipe »

Hi all,
I don't think the IAA would allow this unless the airfields in question were essentially good enough to be licensed anyway.There's no shortage of bumpy, twisty,uneven airstrips with hazardous wires, trees,buildings and cranky neighbours in Ireland but how many of them are actually suited to training is open to question. I would also suspect that the IAA would want to have the entire legal responsibility transferred to the operator of such an airfield, so that if there was an accident, the onus would fall on the airfield operator.
regards
Stovepipe

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Re: Contrasts CAA-IAA

Post by jonkil »

alphaLaura wrote:I really cannot see something like this being adopted by the IAA. It would be too good to be true.

But, if it could happen, it would be interesting to see the level of competition arising between established flight schools and clubs and individual instructors offering training from unlicensed fields.
Laura, you forget something !
In CAA land - everything is allowed unless it is specifically disallowed.
In IAA land - everything is disallowed unless specifically allowed. They are worlds apart :(

jm2833530
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Re: Contrasts CAA-IAA

Post by jm2833530 »

I want rules than are sane and proportionate, rules I am happy to respect. Some rules are, others are not. Regulators are afraid of having their asses whopped and the result is silliness and repression. Lawmakers need to show genuine insight in their laws and find a mechanism to allow for controlled risk in the lawmaking process as well as the flying. With the proviso to revise rules in a tighter or looser sense, in the light of experience. The beaurocratic dictum to CYA seems to be always the uppermost rule in the minds of the legislators. IMHO all the regulators need to get out and fly more.

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Re: Contrasts CAA-IAA

Post by StrikeCommand »

I would have thought there were definite benefits to only allowing training at licensed airfields. In order to get and maintain an aerodrome license, you have to undergo an annual inspection. The IAA inspectors will check that you have the required Rescue & Fire Fighting equipment (e.g. minimum quantities of foam,water, specified rescue items etc), first aid training etc. Also the runway, taxiways etc have to meet certain standards and windsocks etc must be up to scratch. They will want a Safeguarding Map which shows various surfaces/zones around the runway/approaches which have to be kept clear of obstacles. The airfield operator is required to lodge that with the Local Authority (Planning Dept) and is expected to keep an eye on developments in the area which may affect the aerodrome and flight safety. They will want an Emergency Plan and probably want to see it demonstrated by way of an exercise with the local Fire Brigade.
While all that may not be perfect, it is a lot more than unlicensed aerodrome operators are required to do which is absolutely nothing! I think I would feel safer training (and flying generally) from a licensed aerodrome than an unlicensed one.

stovepipe
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Re: Contrasts CAA-IAA

Post by stovepipe »

Hi all,
Perhaps an airfield could be used for training, in the style of uncontrolled American airfields, where Unicom is the norm and seperation is maintained by each aircraft or where the minimum standard of control is an AFISO (just like Weston used to have).Before you all rush to enthuse over the CAA, UK pilots moan about them constantly.The grass isn't always greener.....
regards
Stovepipe

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Re: Contrasts CAA-IAA

Post by MCRO »

This is a very, very difficult discussion

because

one solution cannot be devised to suit everyone

The 'Light' end of the spectrum - say stall <45kt - needs very little aerodrome assistance - the I/R Multi trainer needs a lot more

At the 'Light' end what is nowadays the risk of a fire on the field? Who can intervene in 40 secs? (All you have)

Ideally an aerodrme would be a circular well-mown, smooth, grass field with no obstacles penetrating say a 6' slope

Radio as a routine collision avoidance aid in uncontrolled VFR ,in my view, mixes distraction with aid : it's use should be to sort the unusual not to yap the normal : VFR means what it says and cannot be replaced

Where I am flying at the moment (NZ) there is an assigned Unicom covering 19 airfields within Radio hailing distance : you just about need a Radio Operator with you keep up

Deciding general minimum requirements is something I beleve it will be impossible to do

Best Cheer

Maurice

hugoj_air
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Re: Contrasts CAA-IAA

Post by hugoj_air »

Some of the replies are missing the point I was making. I am NOT suggesting that the IAA relax the rules for training from un-licensed strips. That would be tooooooo much to ask. If you re-read the sentence below, you will better understand what I'm getting at.
I wonder if our own IAA could read this and realise just what can be achived by reasonable contact with the groups here in the Republic who run the different sections of light aviation on their behalf.
The impression I'm getting from the many different posts is that a small element within the IAA are not interested in helping light aviation in any way shape or form.

jm2833530 has hit the nail on the head.
The beaurocratic dictum to CYA seems to be always the uppermost rule in the minds of the legislators. IMHO all the regulators need to get out and fly more.

The question is do any of this small group within the IAA have any experience of light aviation at all. If not would it be possible to invite some of them to experience it for themselves.

Hugo.
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