irish atc on strike

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tally1
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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by tally1 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:35 pm

IF your colleagues and friends who have wifes,kids mortgages to pay got sent home with no pay for no good reason you would do what you had to do to get them back.
For that reason alone, to answer your question, yes. It is the honourable thing to do in the last defense of yourself and your colleagues.

Now listen very carefully. None of atc wanted to have to do that. Atc had offered for 9 days previous not to strike as long as the people suspended were unsuspended especially since the labour court was to adjudicate in less than 10 days. Whatever the LC were to decide then was fine but why antagonise the situation and suspend people before that. Have you asked yourself that??

If the Iaa and certain people within the upper Iaa hadn't gone a solo run trying to be IBEC Heroes then this would never have happened. Simple. Direct your anger and rightful anger it is, at the Iaa management not the controllers who had no other option except being ridden til kingdom come.

On broader note every section of society uses was leverage they have eg farmers will quite happily drive tractors thru cities all day and release sheep in business and buildings. So what it's what they do. In the last resort when the other side WILL NOT TALK TO YOU no matter what, tell me what are you meant to do in order to stop your friends colleagues and hard working people from people financially and professionally raped by over the top testorone driven meglomaniac gorgon geckos whose only motivation is greed.

All management at iaa earn huge bonuses for doing not much. But as we are getting near end of year those bonuses for management may be n doubt if they can't say we have implemented x ,y and z and so greed may have motivated them into escalation of this dispute which when it cones down to it is over nothing very significant and nothing that couldn't be solved by talking.
Last edited by tally1 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by tally1 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:43 pm

Hope that helps and answers your question.

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by captain slow » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:56 pm

Just so all you taxpayers know- ye don't pay a thing to the Iaa or controllers wages. The iaa charge airlines for the service their air traffic controllers provide to them. This as far as I know brings money into the country which is then spent in Ireland by the iaa and it's staff in the form of wages, building work, supplies etc.

From working in eurocontrol if you compare the wage of each controller compared to how many aircraft they handle the iaa controllers are the second most efficient controllers in Europe. We handle the sector capacities of all atc sectors in Europe and make sure that none get overloaded for safety reasons. The iaa capacities reduce for each upgrade, sometimes temporarily, sometimes permanently.

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by tally1 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:14 pm

Thank you.

The iaa make 15 million pure profit every year while charging the lowest or second lowest in Europe. If the iaa chareged what the uk charge the profit would be 85 million a year. If the staff do extra work that enhances that profitability then why shouldn't they share in it ??

If those staff are thn suspended with no pay at all needlessly while talks are still ongoing and the iaa refuse to talk at all what are you meant to do.

The iaa fat cat management are still hurting after being made look like fools and liars after the last dispute in 2008 too so maybe they thought it was payback time.

Remember ATC is about safety safety safety and the controllers have had to fight for that n the past. Now if you have to fight your own atc company management over safety what does that tell you about the iaa management ?

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Jim » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

@tally1
Jim @ AOPA shame on you. You really have been taken hook line and sinker by the IAA. If you are the impartial ,even handed,inquiring sort who claims to represent GA in Ireland then you have been sold a pup by IAA. You have your own agenda which is fair enough,but by taking sides,showing a complete ignorance of ATC,its equipment and procedures you have already made a fool of yourself.
I have made an apology stating “If my posts look as if I am taking sides”
I am merely stating what is publicly available.
And believe me when I state that AOPA Ireland has more debates with IAA in a week, than IMPACT would have in 6 Months!
We ONLY represent AOPA Ireland members.
You have taken sides-fact
Everything you have said is either a LIE or not factual at all-FACT
In return for a slap on the back and god knows what else from the IAA you seem quite happy to slate and slag off without reason
I do not believe I have libeled anyone in my posts.
If you believe despite your ignorance on the matter that our systems are going from windows XP to Vista then you are so laughably off the mark YOU are actually funny.
I stated “Similar to changing from Windows XP to Vista!” This was for the benefit of those less familiar with a computer network system ONLY!
The majority of PC users in Ireland are only used to Windows, they don’t understand Ubunto, Linux or Centos systems
And do you see this on IAA Website…
“All air traffic control systems are continuously upgraded as a matter of course. This is a high-tech service requiring ongoing technical upgrades to its systems, many of them Windows-based.”
If you believe that a 'computer' upgrade allows controllers to do more tasks in a shorter time then good for you but ATC isnt microsoft word processor you know. In fact the system we have increases controller workload with each upgrade.
Once again I am Mis-quoted,
“this will allow a controller to perform more tasks in a shorter time”
When this is finished…..
By the way this 'upgrade' has so far cost 125 million euro and all it is a the moment is a computer program no hardware in use yet. So we havent been using this at all because its no where near ready.
I work 41 hrs a week that includes being up to my neck in planes at 4am when im sure you are tucked up in bed.
41 hours! You are getting plenty of overtime then!
As anyone that knows me will confirm that…
The last time I got away with 41hrs a week was when my wife was in Hospital!
And, me in Bed by 4am, very, very rarely!

AOPA Ireland has no beef with Any Workers Union, and nor do I Personally. But if I can ask you 2 questions
1)
Now dont get me wrong the money is very good and im gratefull for it.
The pay is your own business and would not concern us but, just wondering, is the 6% really necessary then, while the rest of Ireland takes pay cuts?

And 2)
Do you feel you have gained anything from the stoppage?
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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by RV BLUE » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:15 pm

"I work 41 hrs a week that includes being up to my neck in planes at 4am when im sure you are tucked up in bed."

I think most people are up to their neck in their work most days.......I hold down two jobs.
I don't want a medal for it, but for god's sake give me a break with the "4am" crap.....the world cries for ya....right. WTF ??

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Whisky Tango » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:55 pm

Er, can the ATCOs just answer me this: if you've already been doing the work for two years, why the sudden change? :roll: I think that's a question a lot of the public would like answered. It's been asked a lot of times but you keep dodging it - answer it once and for all and and you may win a bit more support (or should I say, stop losing it)

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by tally1 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:00 pm

Jim@Aopa apology accepted and no hard feelings. Your statement that said by taking a certain stance you were garnering favour with the IAA which would stand you in good stead later was what led me to a certain conlusion along with the repeating of the lies and aggro that the IAA spin doctors were spouting. But like I said no hard feelings.

As for the new technology and why we stopped. This new coopans system is being designed for the swedes,Danes and austrians as well. 125 million has been spent to date on it. This technology and the point merge and runway config in Dublin have only been in the devolpmental and theoretical stages until now. Call it research it. But before it's implemented there are 1001 issues to be sorted before it goes live. Every single time before this those issues were discussed/negotiated etc to the satisfaction of all. Unfortunately this time the Gordon gecko wannabees lost control of themselves and started gettin all aggro. The rest you know.

Finally and thankfully our colleagues are back on the payroll. Final determination will be next week in arbitration which is what intelligent adults do..... Usually.

It's all over thanks for all those who saw thru the spin and supported us. Remember nothing else that ATC looks after all you fliers.

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:08 pm

I've been watching the treads on this forum and the pprune forum and it's quite humorous to see how the pilots have reacted to the atc strikes. The very same pilots who shout and roar about their own terms and conditions and how they've spiraled. The very same pilots that attack 200hr guys that have been led down a one way street and forced to pay for a type/job to get on the ladder. The same pilots who if they had any cop on would have stood together and defended their occupation(just like the atc guys have done) and would never have let this situation occur.

As for their pay for some one who has the responsibility of insuring that plane loads of passengers get to their destinations safely who with a single lapse of concentration could cause the deaths of hundreds of people, I personally believe that they are deserving of a 6 figure sum per annum, probably a lot more deserving of it than their management. Something that is a scary prospect for commercial aviation is the belief that we all should be paid as minimal as possible because the airlines can't afford it, my ar*e, charge an extra few quid to the customers. When bus drivers are getting paid more than aircraft pilots one really has to start asking questions.

Remember maslows hierarchy of needs from your human factors. Atco's currently don't have to worry about basic needs(cause they've stood their ground on pay and conditions), but others sectors of the industry clearly have deteriorated to this, take for example the Buffalo crash in the USA and the wonderfull new initiatives the likes of Easyjet have started. If Mick O'Leary and all those lovely accountant types had their way I'm sure they'd have atco's on minimum wage or maybe evening being forced to pay for their training on their new technologies but sure their mortgage or children's education isn't managements problem sure aren't you lucky to have a job :roll: .

I always wondered whether those that apparently hate unions are really just jealous because they get pi**ed on by their management and they can do nothing about it. This seems to be a classic case here where management have deliberately bullied their staff into a corner where they've no choice but to take action in this case they can because they've organised themselves with a union. Again what most people who criticize unions fail to understand is that staff and management can and mostly do get on together even if their is a union they just have to treat their staff with a bit of respect.

Best of luck lads, hope my union has the same liathróidí when my profitable employer attempts to make the "necessary cuts".

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Jim » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:49 pm

With due respect lads, This is the GA forum and if you are looking for support for ATC on here, it is doubtful if it will be forthcoming.
82% of Irish GA will never in their flying lifetime even contact ATC.
The majority of them see the ATC as an "enemy figure" whose territory is a "NO GO" area.
Many have been made anything but welcome by controllers in airport circuits.
These are the same people ATC report for, accidental minor infringements into CTA's.and they pay dearly for it!
This new coopans system is being designed for the swedes,Danes and austrians as well. 125 million has been spent to date on it. This technology and the point merge and runway config in Dublin have only been in the devolpmental and theoretical stages until now. Call it research it. But before it's implemented there are 1001 issues to be sorted before it goes live.
COOPANS is designed for all countries to use and has been accepted by EASA for the EU.
It forms the first stage of the SESAR UR plan and will be active in 2012 in 16 countries within Europe.
The testing has been ongoing for the last 15 months and an aircraft has been landing at different Airports without any direct ATC involvement.

Here's the test Aircraft, already seen by those who attended our Lucan Spa meeting last August.
lunapic_126453458446224_3.png
lunapic_126453458446224_3.png (233.57 KiB) Viewed 2392 times
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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Pilot » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:45 pm

82% of Irish GA will never in their flying lifetime even contact ATC.
I very much doubt that that is true.
The majority of them see the ATC as an "enemy figure" whose territory is a "NO GO" area
I hope that that has no more than a bit of truth to it.
GA seems to function fine with ATC at Weston and Waterford for example, without any "enemy figure".

I appreciate that Dublin ATC maybe somewhat more 'scary' for people and maybe somewhat of a 'no go' area, but hardly an enemy figure. In fact, with the exception of Dublin, I can't remember ever been refused a clearance to enter controlled airspace in Ireland.

P

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by KeithT » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:19 pm

Pilot,
I am very much with you on this.
I have been into the majority of controlled airports over here flying GA and not once had a problem with ATC refusing me, or intimidating me into not using them. I've been through the Dub zone a good few times and again never had any issues, they were always accomadating with my requests for different things while under their control.
I certainly don't condone their striking action last week but I surely don't see them as the enemy, in my experience they have always treated myself as if I were a 737 pilot.

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Jim » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:31 pm

Post Removed! apologies.
Last edited by Jim on Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Pilot » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:27 pm

Do you care to explain why you don't consider ATC at the other regional airports as ATC?

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by jonkil » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:34 pm

Have to say that I never saw ATC as "the enemy", actually, quite the contrary, I have talked to them numerous times, both here and very extensively in the UK, both civilian and military and never had issues with them, and have very rarely been denied a transit of airspace, and that's flying a microlight.
A lot of ATC problems with GA pilots stems from the fact that a lot of GA folk are never trained how to conduct radio comms properly, when an ATCO hears hesitation, in-experience, even fear in a pilots voice they will tend to treat them more sceptically in my opinion, this can lead to a denial of transit and the immortal words of "stay clear of controlled airspace".
If there is one thing I would recommend any pilot to do is to go and sit the proper RT course, I did mine at Aldrogrove airport in Belfast a few years ago, the amount of useful information I learned, the amount of stuff I learned NOT to say, and the proper phraseology all goes a long way to helping the GA pilot with ATC.
I would say that the majority of ATC operators in Ireland, both north and south, are among the friendliest bunch you could operate and offer a service beyond their call of duty..... this still does not mean that I think they can strike willy nilly !!

Jon

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