My last post was incorrect,and so i have removed it.
What i should have stated was....
Many do not and will not enter a CTA.
Maybe it's because of Fear, Nervousness, or a lack of Phraseology, Knowledge or Confidence!
Only they know!
Please do not see my posts as an attack on ATC's, as this is not intended.
Personally i have nothing against them.
Last Sunday i personally defended the Female Irish ATCO who was Attacked and Libelled by the Mail on Sunday.
irish atc on strike
Moderator: mark
Re: irish atc on strike
Defending the rights of GA in Ireland.
http://www.aopa.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.aopa.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: irish atc on strike
Good man Jim@Iaopa keep talking and writing and digging that hole. If you claim to represent GA in Ireland my you have a lot to learn. That includes a lot of the basics taught at PPL level.
Jim my posts were never an overt support gaining exercise just a rebalancing of the lies and spin and falsehood put out by the IAA. Whatever opinion an individual then reaches is their perogative but at least they can do it without the onesided lies,aggro and b*llsh*t claims from the IAA and their little lackeys like MOL and Iaopa.
You have since deleted your post where you claimed that there was only ATC in DUB CRK and SNN. At least you were able to accept you were wrong when told. However i would have to seriously question your level of basic knowledge and understanding if you believed that in the first place for long enough to actually log in and write it down.If you want to be taken seriously then you gotta sharpen up your act.
Atc is some enemy when they help out pilots who are hopelessy lost and starting to panic,when they inadvertently go IMC and need help and guidance,when they get low on fuel and need help finding where they are looking for,when they organise zone transits for guys who havent bothered filing a flight plan but will bend the rules anyway to help you out when workload permits....will i go on. ? I CAN say these things because i have seen these with my own eyes.
Oh yes the most important one of all is the alerting service. Go look that one up and come back and tell me if ATC are still the enemy.
God you have a lot to learn. We are not the policemen of the sky. Unlike the UK where you have a very good chance of ending up in court if bust controlled airpspace without a clearance the same doesnt apply here. Im aware of only 2 court cases in the last number of years both involving major incidents with 'copters. None of busting CAS. Atc will general give you a friendly nudge and heads up if they are talkinh to you if you are about to bust CAS. We dont want you to. However we are obliged by law to report it because if we dont then we are liable to 12 months in prison and a 5000 euro fine.
The same i should point out applies to engineers and pilots for a whole host of 'reportable ' events. What happens after that is up to the IAA management not the controllers.
But on broader note and this is what bothers me most is that your implication that busting CAS is no biggy and the worst consequence is you get a ticking off from the IAA. Well its not. CAS is there for a reason. YOu are entitled to fly thru it like evryone else just like ryanair,aer lingus and BA-you just got to play by the rules.If you dont the the consequence is that you may well lose your life and kill 200+ other innocents all beacause of your stupidity,ignorance and lack of skill and situational awareness.That has happened by the way so i acn back it up.
Jim when your organistaion ( or is it a one man band?) announced themselves on the scene you appeared like a very shadowy shady crowd but i thought id give you the benfit of the doubt. THere is no doubt in my mind that you are not fit for purpose to represent GA.
Anywhere.
Jim my posts were never an overt support gaining exercise just a rebalancing of the lies and spin and falsehood put out by the IAA. Whatever opinion an individual then reaches is their perogative but at least they can do it without the onesided lies,aggro and b*llsh*t claims from the IAA and their little lackeys like MOL and Iaopa.
What factual source do you have to back that up?. Have you surveyed all irish GA.? Have you surveyed any GA? With statements like that i would have great concerns on what section if any of Irish GA you claim to represent. I also wonder what country you live in if you feel you can make that statement and stand by it. I would imagine that a majority of GA have some interaction with ATC from all the different airfields to the information service on 127.5. Have you heard of that??82% of Irish GA will never in their flying lifetime even contact ATC
You have since deleted your post where you claimed that there was only ATC in DUB CRK and SNN. At least you were able to accept you were wrong when told. However i would have to seriously question your level of basic knowledge and understanding if you believed that in the first place for long enough to actually log in and write it down.If you want to be taken seriously then you gotta sharpen up your act.
Again where is your factual and data driven proof for that incredible statement of apparent fact?? Im glad that others including one northern forumite who who travels the length and breadth of the country and the uk every year have contradicted your OPINION on this.The majority of them see the ATC as an "enemy figure" whose territory is a "NO GO" area
Atc is some enemy when they help out pilots who are hopelessy lost and starting to panic,when they inadvertently go IMC and need help and guidance,when they get low on fuel and need help finding where they are looking for,when they organise zone transits for guys who havent bothered filing a flight plan but will bend the rules anyway to help you out when workload permits....will i go on. ? I CAN say these things because i have seen these with my own eyes.
Oh yes the most important one of all is the alerting service. Go look that one up and come back and tell me if ATC are still the enemy.
These are the same people ATC report for, accidental minor infringements into CTA's.and they pay dearly for it!
God you have a lot to learn. We are not the policemen of the sky. Unlike the UK where you have a very good chance of ending up in court if bust controlled airpspace without a clearance the same doesnt apply here. Im aware of only 2 court cases in the last number of years both involving major incidents with 'copters. None of busting CAS. Atc will general give you a friendly nudge and heads up if they are talkinh to you if you are about to bust CAS. We dont want you to. However we are obliged by law to report it because if we dont then we are liable to 12 months in prison and a 5000 euro fine.
The same i should point out applies to engineers and pilots for a whole host of 'reportable ' events. What happens after that is up to the IAA management not the controllers.
But on broader note and this is what bothers me most is that your implication that busting CAS is no biggy and the worst consequence is you get a ticking off from the IAA. Well its not. CAS is there for a reason. YOu are entitled to fly thru it like evryone else just like ryanair,aer lingus and BA-you just got to play by the rules.If you dont the the consequence is that you may well lose your life and kill 200+ other innocents all beacause of your stupidity,ignorance and lack of skill and situational awareness.That has happened by the way so i acn back it up.
Jim when your organistaion ( or is it a one man band?) announced themselves on the scene you appeared like a very shadowy shady crowd but i thought id give you the benfit of the doubt. THere is no doubt in my mind that you are not fit for purpose to represent GA.
Anywhere.
Re: irish atc on strike
PArt deux.
Jim and iaopa as for your incredible lack of understanding yet huge interest in technology and sytems and procedures that will have little or no impact on GA in IReland is fascinating. I got to ask why are you spending so much time and apparently money too by jetting off trips to portugal and brussels etc to talk about stuff that will only affect the heavy iron boys. ?
Point merge ,and coopans aint going to affect GA in ireland much................unless you know something i dont???
Just so you know COOpans is not SESAR. Its a system that should be upgradeable to sesar specs in the futeur whenver that is. Again the flyers here and indeed your members might be interested in why you are interested in the single sky for europe? It will only be for the heavies which is outside any definition of general aviation.
Coopans can obviously be used by anyone who wants it but the only ones so far are the irish, danes and swedes with the austrinas joining a couple of weeks ago. IT is only adding some functionality(that may or may notincrease controller workload) and adding the ability to be upgraded to sesar spec at a later date.
Now i dont know how you can claim that coopans will be operational in 16 eurpean countries by 2012 when only 4 have signed up to it?
Basic coopans lesson ends,i hope i have enlightened you more than your oversea's trips appeared to have done. The golf is good in portugal tho.....................
AS for personally defending the atco who was libelled last sunday show me where you have personally defended her please. I didnt see anything by you or iaopa anywhere.
Over and out
Jim and iaopa as for your incredible lack of understanding yet huge interest in technology and sytems and procedures that will have little or no impact on GA in IReland is fascinating. I got to ask why are you spending so much time and apparently money too by jetting off trips to portugal and brussels etc to talk about stuff that will only affect the heavy iron boys. ?
Point merge ,and coopans aint going to affect GA in ireland much................unless you know something i dont???
Just so you know COOpans is not SESAR. Its a system that should be upgradeable to sesar specs in the futeur whenver that is. Again the flyers here and indeed your members might be interested in why you are interested in the single sky for europe? It will only be for the heavies which is outside any definition of general aviation.
Coopans can obviously be used by anyone who wants it but the only ones so far are the irish, danes and swedes with the austrinas joining a couple of weeks ago. IT is only adding some functionality(that may or may notincrease controller workload) and adding the ability to be upgraded to sesar spec at a later date.
Now i dont know how you can claim that coopans will be operational in 16 eurpean countries by 2012 when only 4 have signed up to it?
Basic coopans lesson ends,i hope i have enlightened you more than your oversea's trips appeared to have done. The golf is good in portugal tho.....................
Give me a break Jim,who are kidding after all the rubbish and lies you have committed to public utterance. Once you say something its very hard to take it back and say 'oh i didnt mean it'Please do not see my posts as an attack on ATC's, as this is not intended.
Personally i have nothing against them.
Last Sunday i personally defended the Female Irish ATCO who was Attacked and Libelled by the Mail on Sunday
AS for personally defending the atco who was libelled last sunday show me where you have personally defended her please. I didnt see anything by you or iaopa anywhere.
Over and out
Re: irish atc on strike
Does that include the LRC?they can do it without the onesided lies,aggro and b*llsh*t claims from the IAA and their little lackeys like MOL and Iaopa.
http://www.iaa.ie/files/2010/docs/20100 ... an%202.pdf
You lost pay, time, support and disrupted the Country, then the LRC LEFT YOU BACK, TO WHERE YOU WERE the previous Tuesday with nothing gained.
The post deleted was meant for another forum about IMPACT ATC Members in Ireland.
It was inadvertently posted here, sometimes can happen when monitoring different forums.
Like it or not, they would rather not transit zones if possible, and the new charges coming shortly will increase the numbers in avoidance.Atc is some enemy when they help out pilots who are hopelessy lost and starting to panic,when they inadvertently go IMC and need help and guidance,when they get low on fuel and need help finding where they are looking for,when they organise zone transits for guys etc.
Do you believe I implied that?is that your implication that busting CAS is no biggy
procedures that will have little or no impact on GA in Ireland
Now who’s showing a lack of knowledge?about stuff that will only affect the heavy iron boys. ?
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAct ... nguage=env
It may be so…… just have to wait and see, wont we!Point merge ,and coopans aint going to affect GA in Ireland much...............unless you know something i dont???
Didn’t see it-so doesn’t exist?? I did say PERSONALLY. Try pprune or boards.ie, try irelandtoday, or ask MOS for a copy of LTEangryirishman!AS for personally defending the atco who was libelled last sunday show me where you have personally defended her please. I didnt see anything by you or iaopa anywhere.
And as for…
Well, knowing me, probably checking out ATC!I got to ask why are you spending so much time and apparently money too by jetting off trips to portugal and brussels etc
But we all want to know, can you answer the previous questions asked off ATC in this thread?
And I truly hope your radio manner is not reflective to your forum one!
No hard feelings, none meant! J
Defending the rights of GA in Ireland.
http://www.aopa.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.aopa.ie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: irish atc on strike
As an aside to the conversation above; is there any indication that the IAA might be advertising any time soon to fill shortages??
Another broken undercarriage........
Re: irish atc on strike
Nosedive: No indication but in all likelyhood not until September 2010 at the earliest if at all in 2010 as i believe there are 24 students just started down in Shannon. 30+ students have just checked out or are about to and there are 20+ direct entries as well. Having said that tho there is a signififcant ongoing need for continous recruitment over the next 5 years due the demographics in the company(lots of people due to retire). The lead in time is 18 to 24 months from student to qualified controller so expect more recruitment.
To return to the nub of the matter that thankfully has resolved itself. Despite the assertions that nothing was gained i refer to the very first point of the LRC proposal as listed here by my good friend Jim at aopa ireland
http://www.iaa.ie/files/2010/docs/20100 ... an%202.pdf
Which if i may qoute from...'those currently suspended be restored to the payroll from friday 22 jan at 1800'.
Since that was the reason the mandatory meeting was held in the first place then our aim and only aim in getting our colleagues back on the payroll was achieved. Remember you got to keep asking yourself why the IAA suspended its own employees without pay while the matter was ongoing before the LC anyway.
It is a pity that such overly aggresive and preemptive action was taken and a pity that the controllers were forced into the ultimate sanction and even more of a pity that planes couldnt fly. But you got to keep asking why did the IAA force the issue without waiting 10 days for the LC to decide which it did anyway.
In fact now that LC has decided the union as always has come out and said it will honour those binding recommendations.
To return to the nub of the matter that thankfully has resolved itself. Despite the assertions that nothing was gained i refer to the very first point of the LRC proposal as listed here by my good friend Jim at aopa ireland
http://www.iaa.ie/files/2010/docs/20100 ... an%202.pdf
Which if i may qoute from...'those currently suspended be restored to the payroll from friday 22 jan at 1800'.
Since that was the reason the mandatory meeting was held in the first place then our aim and only aim in getting our colleagues back on the payroll was achieved. Remember you got to keep asking yourself why the IAA suspended its own employees without pay while the matter was ongoing before the LC anyway.
It is a pity that such overly aggresive and preemptive action was taken and a pity that the controllers were forced into the ultimate sanction and even more of a pity that planes couldnt fly. But you got to keep asking why did the IAA force the issue without waiting 10 days for the LC to decide which it did anyway.
In fact now that LC has decided the union as always has come out and said it will honour those binding recommendations.
Re: irish atc on strike
Now the bit that isnt related to the IR problems and which has become a side issue.Technology. Now there is only one person throwing their uneducated opinions around here on something that is obvious they have very little understanding of.
As for Jim casting doubt on my Rt technique let me assure you that ATC are 100% professional and most of the time friendly too (we are human and can have off days like anyone else!) Indeed from both sides of the screen( i fly a lot too remember) i have to say the service is excellent and friendly which most real fliers here seem to agree with. Of course there are no accounting for 'cowboys' no matter who represents them.
Apparently i have also shown my lack of knowledge of my professional area of expertise by this link being posted by Jim.
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAct ... nguage=env
If i may qoute the first 3 lines 'The European Commission adopted today the second package of legislation for a Single European Sky (SES II). These proposals aim to further improve safety, cut costs and reduce delays. That will in turn mean lower fuel consumption, so that airlines could save up to 16 million tons of CO2 emissions and cut their annual cost by between two and three billion euros' shows that this has nothing in reality to do with GA and even more so in Ireland. IT is meant in the main for the heavy iron boys as i said in previous posts. Unless you own and fly an turboprop,bizjet or an airline then this process is blind to the people who fly SEP class planes in Ireland or indeed europe. Jim i hope you read anymore of your links before you actually post them!
Lack of knowledge moi??????
Now if Jim cant see that point merge will have no affect on GA in ireland then who am i disagree with him! see here http://www.eurocontrol.int/eec/public/s ... Merge.html
Just make your own mind up that one! In my opinion this will only affect those heavy iron boys agagin,but the self appointed voice of GA in ireland seems mightily concerned. That is of course they actually represent GA in ireland and arent just trying to muscle in on the airline representative game which is big money!
The powerpoint link on page 1 of this thread in case you didnt bother reading it is all about how the german aopa is making representaions on this and will aslo be charging for their thoughts. I suppose the aopa ireland is trying to get in on this too?
One of the major things we look for in our students is 'spoofing'. People who chance their arm,make things up,waffle or just plain pretend that they know what they are talking about even when they don't. The reason is that its dangerous in our game. We much prefer that someone would just hold up their hand and say 'i dont know' .....its accepted and the answer is given so that knowledge is transferred.Continuing on ignorance is just down right wrong and in our game dangerous.
Need i go on Jim!
PS Jim you still have to substantiate your claims that '82% of GA will never in their flying life even contact ATC'. Have you any proof to back that up? Because if you dont then why are you spending so much time and effort and money on ATC related issues if it will never affect GA in their lifetime. You can't have it both ways. Or were you just making that up????????
PPS Your statement of fact that 'The majority of them(flyers) see them(ATCO's) as an enemy figure' needs to be backed up by data from you...that is if you can?? How can ATC be an enemy to the majority of flyers if ,as you contend, that the majority will never come in contact with ATC? You have provided contradictory statements. Can you post a link to your survey that shows this please. Or where you making this up too.
You have dug yourself a big hole and im still waiting to see you try and climb out of it!
Its a pity as your doing youself, your organisation and GA in Ireland no favours by spoofing.
As for Jim casting doubt on my Rt technique let me assure you that ATC are 100% professional and most of the time friendly too (we are human and can have off days like anyone else!) Indeed from both sides of the screen( i fly a lot too remember) i have to say the service is excellent and friendly which most real fliers here seem to agree with. Of course there are no accounting for 'cowboys' no matter who represents them.
Apparently i have also shown my lack of knowledge of my professional area of expertise by this link being posted by Jim.
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAct ... nguage=env
If i may qoute the first 3 lines 'The European Commission adopted today the second package of legislation for a Single European Sky (SES II). These proposals aim to further improve safety, cut costs and reduce delays. That will in turn mean lower fuel consumption, so that airlines could save up to 16 million tons of CO2 emissions and cut their annual cost by between two and three billion euros' shows that this has nothing in reality to do with GA and even more so in Ireland. IT is meant in the main for the heavy iron boys as i said in previous posts. Unless you own and fly an turboprop,bizjet or an airline then this process is blind to the people who fly SEP class planes in Ireland or indeed europe. Jim i hope you read anymore of your links before you actually post them!
Lack of knowledge moi??????
Now if Jim cant see that point merge will have no affect on GA in ireland then who am i disagree with him! see here http://www.eurocontrol.int/eec/public/s ... Merge.html
Just make your own mind up that one! In my opinion this will only affect those heavy iron boys agagin,but the self appointed voice of GA in ireland seems mightily concerned. That is of course they actually represent GA in ireland and arent just trying to muscle in on the airline representative game which is big money!
The powerpoint link on page 1 of this thread in case you didnt bother reading it is all about how the german aopa is making representaions on this and will aslo be charging for their thoughts. I suppose the aopa ireland is trying to get in on this too?
Jim i love that post,what a bit of backpeddling. You bought that line put out by the IAA that our upgrades are like going from xp to vista! Yes our system is windows based but its nothing to do with MS windows of any variety. By windows based it just means that different functions use drop down 'windows' or open in different 'windows' depending on the function. See you learn something new everyday !I stated “Similar to changing from Windows XP to Vista!” This was for the benefit of those less familiar with a computer network system ONLY!
One of the major things we look for in our students is 'spoofing'. People who chance their arm,make things up,waffle or just plain pretend that they know what they are talking about even when they don't. The reason is that its dangerous in our game. We much prefer that someone would just hold up their hand and say 'i dont know' .....its accepted and the answer is given so that knowledge is transferred.Continuing on ignorance is just down right wrong and in our game dangerous.
Need i go on Jim!
PS Jim you still have to substantiate your claims that '82% of GA will never in their flying life even contact ATC'. Have you any proof to back that up? Because if you dont then why are you spending so much time and effort and money on ATC related issues if it will never affect GA in their lifetime. You can't have it both ways. Or were you just making that up????????
PPS Your statement of fact that 'The majority of them(flyers) see them(ATCO's) as an enemy figure' needs to be backed up by data from you...that is if you can?? How can ATC be an enemy to the majority of flyers if ,as you contend, that the majority will never come in contact with ATC? You have provided contradictory statements. Can you post a link to your survey that shows this please. Or where you making this up too.
You have dug yourself a big hole and im still waiting to see you try and climb out of it!
Its a pity as your doing youself, your organisation and GA in Ireland no favours by spoofing.
Last edited by tally1 on Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: irish atc on strike
If i may post a little humour
http://www.todayfm.com/Shows/Weekdays/I ... audio.aspx
click on gift bainisteoir part three.
O leary making atc play with no kit thinking we are the guys with the table tennis bats doing a YMCA impression. Gotta love it!
http://www.todayfm.com/Shows/Weekdays/I ... audio.aspx
click on gift bainisteoir part three.
O leary making atc play with no kit thinking we are the guys with the table tennis bats doing a YMCA impression. Gotta love it!
Re: irish atc on strike
God be with the times when we'd go out to Culmullen field on Chrismas Morning, harness up the Tiger Moth, (partly then the property of he who is now ATC Operations Manager), perform a few loops over Collinstown to show their Zone was free when abandoned - and return to Christmas Dinner
They stopped us about 1969 by putting Shannon in Charge of the Dublin Zone to keep it live when closed!
Maurice
They stopped us about 1969 by putting Shannon in Charge of the Dublin Zone to keep it live when closed!
Maurice
Re: irish atc on strike
Actually Maurice, I'm not sure if it still happens but the Dublin zone used to be open FIR on Christmas day until recently. People often took advantage of it and on a clear Christmas day there was often quite of activity over Dublin. In fact the star of this month's cover, the Decathlon was often to be found performing aerobatics directly over Dublin Airport on Christmas day.
Re: irish atc on strike
How nice to hear
But I wonder how recently is recently?
I believe thaht in any timescale claiminf recency such a flight would have had to carry a clearance from Shannon - I forget which great leap forward made a clearance as well as a flightplan mandatory for VFF operation in a control zone - an I seeem to remember Dubkin got it before others
Maurice
But I wonder how recently is recently?
I believe thaht in any timescale claiminf recency such a flight would have had to carry a clearance from Shannon - I forget which great leap forward made a clearance as well as a flightplan mandatory for VFF operation in a control zone - an I seeem to remember Dubkin got it before others
Maurice
Re: irish atc on strike
Yep the vanman is correct, for the last few years dublins airspace gets designated class G so the boys and girls down in shannon info look after it. So no flight plan or clearance required amongst other things!!
So yeah you can just fly around do a few rolls in the moth if you have one, the only thing you cant do is land at eidw unless you have prior permision. just read the notam and it will tell you all you need to know.
So yeah you can just fly around do a few rolls in the moth if you have one, the only thing you cant do is land at eidw unless you have prior permision. just read the notam and it will tell you all you need to know.