Irish air traffic control

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redrebel
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Irish air traffic control

Post by redrebel »

How do you rank the service provided by our ATCO'S be they semi state or the regionals in this countys?Just curious as all i ever seem to hear off of other flyers is in the negitive ie was last in the sequence or bumped for line traffic at various state aerodromes etc etc.Is there anythng positive that we can about atc in Ireland? :twisted: :twisted:
Low Lie the fields of Athenry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shrtfld
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ATCO's in ireland

Post by shrtfld »

We at Coonagh operate on the edge of and under controlled airspace. As a result we have a lot of interaction with Shannon. I think everyone at Coonagh will agree that traffic permitting the guys and gals at Shannon are A1. Very helpful and not at all unreasonable. If we want to enter or transit zone as part of training exercise a call before take off to the tower will invariably lead to an amicable arrangement. Equally they are pleased to hear from us if we make "info only" contact.

One criticism is the requirement by AIS at Shannon to file flight plans an hour before take-off - especially if the flight is not due to enter controlled airspace for quite a awhile - eg trips tp Kerry or Cork. Often it is not feasible to file plans until you reach airfield with up to date met and assurance that you have a servicable aircraft. Have often had to kick my files wasting good flying conditions waiting for the hour (or so!) to tick by.
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Post by Bearcat »

i notice when you take off 60 mins after the flight plan has been filed SNN on more occassions than not havent bother to sent the plan upto Dub.

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Post by mikekilo »

"... Often it is not feasible to file plans until you reach airfield with up to date met and assurance that you have a servicable aircraft. Have often had to kick my files wasting good flying conditions waiting for the hour (or so!) to tick by"

..why don't you file your flight plan before you drive to the airfield (and before you've had a chance to confirm aircraft availability and met). If you are unable to proceed with your flight... the flight plan will just expire automatically. If you actually do proceed with you flight, at least you don't have to wait the full hour before starting up.... a good few mins have passed already since you filed. Don't forget you can also amend your flight plan should there be delays to your departure time.

Perhaps you know all this stuff anyways... I'm just puzzled as to why you would wait until you got to the field to file a flight plan (meaning you must wait an hour before starting up).

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Post by Lionel Hutz »

Irish atc are O.K. They are encumbered with practices that are suited to airline traffic only and GA has to fall into line with that. I find them to be professional in my dealings with them, maybee a little bit inflexible especially one particular individual in Kerry tower.

It has been said many times before but what would have a beneficial effect on both safety and consumer relations ie GA pilots dealing with atc, is if they were to take a rotation at least once during their careers to the US and in particular a busy GA/airline mixed airport and do a busmans holiday if you like for a few weeks. Not saying that the FAA know it all, but exposure to such an environment would certainly help especially considering that almost all serious PPL's have done some flying in the US.

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Post by MCRO »

The 60 min Shannon Stopover on flight plans (and it is not an ATC failing, merely that it is insisted that messages from AIS to TWR be routed via the the old Ballygireen station built to service the flying boats in WW II) is of course 60 mins before clearance needed, not before takeoff.

Where does Michaelo come by the notion that Flight Plans expire automatically if not cancelled/closed?

I have the greatest interest in having myself retrieved from a river bed on my planned track as soon as possible after the fuel endurance advised on my PLN = the advised expected elapsed time

Always the assumption has to be made that a flight did depart as filed

Maurice

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Post by mikekilo »

"Where does Michaelo come by the notion that Flight Plans expire automatically if not cancelled/closed?"

With all due respect Maurice... you probably didn't read my posting correctly. When you file (register) a Flight Plan - it expires automatically if you subsequently decide not to proceed with your flight. 'Filing' a flight plan and 'opening' a flight plan are two different proceedures...

"Always the assumption has to be made that a flight did depart as filed"

No assumption is made at all... the flight either departed or it did not - the act of opening(activating) the flight plan is the sole indicator of such activity. Agreed, any opened/activiated flight plan must be closed - I did not suggest that it expires automatically.

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Post by MCRO »

What I am on about gets missed sometimes because it is so basic

If I file a plan and don't arrive or otherwise cancel/close I expect to be looked for

Where comes the idea of 'opening' a plan - and how do you do it?

I have honestly never come across anything more than 'File' / 'Cancel' /'Close in ICAO / AIP material

(This aspect was highlighted in the tragic loss of a C172 on an IFR Flight Enniskillen - Shannon 28th Sept 1979
Though the impact was probably not survivable the system was very conscious that due to some complication on hand-over (or lack of it) it had failed and no search was launched

Maurice
Last edited by MCRO on Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Guest

Post by Guest »

Having to file a flight plan an hour before entering into Charlie airspace is a very antiquated proceedure.
If Irish ATC needs an hour warning to deal with traffic in relatively empty airspace it makes you question there ability!
Eventually they are going to start charging for the pleasure of talking to controllers, which will be a barrel of laughs.

Some Dublin controllers are very skillful friendly and accomadating.
But there is one legendry female controller, who is renouned for demanding ridiculous speration with the Jet Traffic, and makes no accomadation for GA or other Commercial air ops.
I think people like that could do with taking a visit to some of the larger US airports, were there are hundreds of pieces of traffic operating around the major airports at any one time and things are still kept extremly safe, and everyone is left happy.
It would be good if we could find out who is working what shift so we can plan our flight around it!

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Post by Bearcat »

Ehh Sideshow, is that legendary controller the one that has you back at 220 clicks 30 from the field. Heard of one indiv who asked her was Valley active , they had been vectored so far east. In fairness Dub ATC are a great bunch of people and from my recent interactions with them on the GA front they couldnt have been nicer.

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Post by mikekilo »

Maurice - filing a flight plan is the act of serving notice to Shannon AIS of your 'intentions' to conduct a flight. In order for this flight plan to be brought to life, the flight plan must be 'activitated/opened' by ATC (usually after you call them for taxi clearance, or on your initial RT call when airborne if departing a non-towered airfield). Subsequently ATC will close the flight plan when you arrive at your destination (or enroute if destination is non-towered). Be carefull though... in the US, it is the responsibility of the pilot to close the flight plan at towered airfields.

Its a pretty straighforward proceedure... I do not understand why you cannot distinguish between 'filing' and 'opening' a flight plan (not trying to be smart here). All I am saying is that life would be easier down at Coonagh if ye filed before driving to the airfield.... since you'll spend some of the 60 min notice period on the drive to the airfield. If you subsequently decide against taking the flight, the flight plan you filed earlier simply gets deleted automatically from the system... no big deal as it had not been activated in the first place. I believe deletion of unopened flight plans occurs 60 mins after ETD.

Are you still a sceptic Maurice ;)

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Post by Guest »

Personally I think we should step in line with the rest of the civilised aviation world and make filing flight plans an advisory and not Mandatory for VFR flights in controlled airspace, especially for anyone above PPL level!

It seems like an awful lot of hassle just to fly into a bit of air that is very unlikely to have any REAL threat.
Its is more of a restriction and unneccesary hassle then anything else.

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Post by Cosmic »

Having done all my flying up to now in the US, I took my first flight out of Weston a couple of days ago. I had back seated the flight before and we went inland towards Trim Navan etc. The WX wasn't the best. I asked for my flight if we could head out over the coast because the WX was better and I wanted to do some sightseeing. I couldn't believe we had to file a flight plan! I could see the Pidgeon Towers and the Airport so close I could touch them. There is no reason in the World that you can't just Pop up out of Weston and ask for a Zone transit. It just seems so Primitive after the States. I flew a 172 into Hartsfield one of the top 5 busiest airfields in the world and it was no drama. Whats the major difficulty with gletting people cut the corner of your airspace?

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Post by MCRO »

Dear Mikelilo

I am no sceptic in these matters : - just believe my feet better grounded than yours.

Your 'opening procedure' falls because, on departure from an uncontrolled aerodrome having filed :

(a) you may be unable to make R/T contact with ATC due distance or terrain

(b) your radio set may, at any time, declare the day a non-working one

(b) you may not even be carrying a Radio

(c) you may come to grief before being able to make R/T contact


In all these instances you may expect - and you will - receive a Search and Rescue Service

You use the phrase "the flight plan must be 'activitated/opened' by ATC"

If this is so it pre-supposes a mandate to pilots to provide the trigger for this : I have no knowledge of any

What I see is a Requirement to submit/file - and that's it

Maurice

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Sixty Minute Rule and Flightplans

Post by MCRO »

This figure is now the ICAO standard

Rcently Irish low-level controlled airspace was re-configured tooccupy minimum volume and allow max freedom to VFR without

It is amazing the number and extent of go-round, emergency descent, minimum climb tracks that have to be continually protected any tme an controlled aerodrome is active.

The scope for random flights not intending to become part of aerodrome traffic is very limited

For my money we shouldn't disturb this airspace unnecessarily and just be thankful we are not living in those not-too-distant days when Dublin was hidden under a 1,000 amsl CTA blanket Balbriggan - Dundalk - Clones - Enfield - Naas

Maurice

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