Would you fly 5 miles out to sea at 1000 feet...

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Jabirujim
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Post by Jabirujim »

I quite often Fly that Route and I have no problem with comlying with ATC instructions. If you do your homework you should know what to expect when flying in controlled airspace. If you feel uncomfortable with the instructions you are given then revert to your plan B with ATC clearance or backtrack and avoid the Zone with ACT with blessing also.
Flying is to be enjoyed not feared or made overly complex.

bumitch
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Post by bumitch »

No criticism of hibby or any others.....but I have often wondered about this vfr route. Isn't there something about airmanship and flying at 500ft and capacity to land clear safely? I can see how a twin would satisfy a duty of care consideration, but a single engine optional routing? I suspect that if you did end up in the drink that you may well have the book thown at you for accepting a routing that was inherently hazardous? No?

Pilot
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Post by Pilot »

The safe landing requirement is for a congested area. I don't think the Irish Sea could be considered a congested area.

Otherwise we could never make cross water flights in a single.

scraggane
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Post by scraggane »

this is a very interesting topic. I'm still a student pilot, and it's very helpful reading the question and responses.

It strikes me that this fear of flying over water is a little bit mis-placed, is it not? There was one fairly experienced pilot in our club who said that he just didn't fly over water, it wasn't for him. Kinda strange i thought. You're unlikely to never be too far from land in the waters around this country if you're in an SEP aircraft, especially in the Irish Sea, so isn't a rescue a fairly certain prospect? On top of that, as MCRO has said, what are the chances of engine failure anyway? Put these and other variables together and you're left with an unlikely chance of a bad ending (at least in good flying conditions) and the fear of flying over water is perhaps misplaced?

buggyB
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Post by buggyB »

We cannot assume that help will be immediate. The pilot of the aircraft that went into the sea off the Wexford coast yesterday was fortunate. It seems from reporting in the media that the call for help came from a boat in the area that saw the aircraft ditching. There was no mention of a mayday call being received. Imagine if the pilot had to wait the 30 minutes overdue time on his flight plan for the rescue process to kick in. That is a long time to be in the sea if your aircraft doesn't happen to float very well.

Check out http://www.met.ie/marine/marine_climatology.asp which indicates that sea temperatures off the east coast are about 14-15 deg (about 58 deg F) at the minute and then look at this http://www.westpacmarine.com/samples/hy ... _chart.asp. For the lighter "summer" clothes that we are wearing at the minute you can err towards the lower side of the range. And this time of year is the best time, in January or February the average temperatures are 7-8 deg (about 45deg F).

Edit to add: New coverage from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... alive.html states that the pilot did manage to get out a mayday before ditching. However the duration from the reported time of landing to rescue was about 45 minutes - albeit with the heli having to refuel first.
Last edited by buggyB on Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cubpilot
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Post by cubpilot »

i have read that initially it is not so much the time v coldness that is a factor in survival but it is the sudden shock of the ditching and getting into the cold water that can cause heart failure. If you enter the sea slowly as in walking out on a beach you can withstand far colder water for much longer. just look at everyone out there on the beaches this time of year.

bumitch
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Post by bumitch »

Pilot wrote:The safe landing requirement is for a congested area. I don't think the Irish Sea could be considered a congested area.

Otherwise we could never make cross water flights in a single.
Perhaps I should have just said "capacity to land safely". Most engaging in cross water flights will seek to be as high as possible, allowing for weather and ATC restrictions. At the very least to provide as much glide and prep time for ditching. Recalling engine failure on take-off practise there would not be a lot of time between engine failure at 500ft and contact with the sea I think.

jm2833530
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Post by jm2833530 »

I am a newbie pilot 120 hours to date and want to head for UK and France as soon as the weather gives me a break. I have PLB and life jackets, mirror, streamer, mars bars what have you.

My a/c has 14:1 glide or 1.9nm per 1000. I would need say 12,000 feet midway wexford - wales for ten minutes to be assured of a dry landing on failure in the middle. Is it possible/likely that you would get cleared to FL13, not to worry too much about hypoxia, given that this would be a cruise climb/descent profile?

Thinking about it, the pipistrel sinus has 29:1 and theoretically needs only 7000ft.

jonkil
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Post by jonkil »

jm2833530 wrote: My a/c has 14:1 glide or 1.9nm per 1000. I would need say 12,000 feet midway wexford - wales for ten minutes to be assured of a dry landing on failure in the middle. Is it possible/likely that you would get cleared to FL13, not to worry too much about hypoxia, given that this would be a cruise climb/descent profile?
Hi John, that is assuming that you know the proper glide profile, wind, and the ability to get the plane on its optimum glide angle e.t.c, e.t.c..... I have done the crossing quite a few times, I still do the crossing Belfast/Portpatrick often and does not give un-due concern now, even done it in a 2 stroke 503 Rans S6, Belfast wont clear you above 2000 at times, especially when 25 in Aldrogrove is in use.... but the crossing is quite quick, especially in something like the CTSW.... it is the way to go if you have concerns... be a bit more flying but isn't that what's it all about?
The crossing to Wales I have made about half a dozen times and back, I really give the aircraft a very thorough pre-flight, maybe taking a few hours a few days before, making as sure as I can be that all is OK... it is a mechanical item and it can fail...... but my prognosis is " my engine does not know its over water".... but as last weeks ditching shows it can happen.
I also take solace in being told that the crossing from Wexford to Wales is one of the safest bits of water from the point of view that we have RAF Valley in North Wales with SAR and our very own lads on duty too..... If my engine even coughs at all, then transponder to 7700, PLB flat out, and me roaring my head of on 121.5 and hope for the best.
The highest I was cleared to for that crossing was FL100 but the normal height I coast out is 5000ft QNH.

All the best,
Jon
Last edited by jonkil on Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pilot
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Post by Pilot »

I would need say 12,000 feet midway wexford - wales for ten minutes to be assured of a dry landing on failure in the middle. Is it possible/likely that you would get cleared to FL13,
FL13 = 1300ft :oops:

FL130 ... well, I've no idea...never asked for it on that route...only done that route a couple of times.

But do bear in mind, that with our weather, it's rare you'll get the weather good enough to allow you to climb up that high. If being able to climb that high is one of your requirements, then you'll find that you can rarely get weather, airplane, and time available to line up for you.

michael747
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Post by michael747 »

I was offered this lambay transit route at 500' yesterday.......
I asked was is possible at not below 1000' but they could not guarentee it as they were a little on the busy side...
After routing to Balbriggan to use the route, I declined it and went around the CTR to EIWT...

Why the f**k would they offer anybody in a C172 a transit at 500'????
Not to mention being above the Irish sea for most of it.....

Is it just heli's that use this route?? or is it used at all??
Regards,
M747
:D

flymo
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32Kts @ 500 ft

Post by flymo »

Not enjoyable however like with all planing 'fail to prepare is preparing to fail'. If you think you may have to fly over prepare for it. I would also like to quote a very experienced person name not mentioned ' a engine does not it is over water' think about all the hours you have flown over land without issue. Plan and be prepared for the worst however as much as I would like to win the lotto the chances are highly unlikely.
Keep Your Tail in Trail

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Post by HillerBee »

I did an IMC rating back in 2000 at Jersey, all the training is done over the Sea, and they've been doing that for a lot of years. I've flown over water a lot since, you have to if you want to leave the Island.

The engine doesn't know it's over water, only the pilot does.

Pilot
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Post by Pilot »

The engine doesn't know it's over water, only the pilot does.
Why do people use that phrase so often? Personally, I'd prefer if the engine DID know that it was over water! Then if it had any sense of self preservation, it would be much less likely to pick that moment to quit! :lol:

ADDICT
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Post by ADDICT »

Hey Hibby,

Very interesting post!I guess its something you just get used to or choice to avoid at all costs, neither option being the wrong one!!
Some might say they would prefer ditch in water when under pin point radar contact like that(quick rescue) then have to try a forced landing in dublin city centre while flying the liffey VFR route to EIWT!!!!
I am based in Navan too..is there much traffic at Navan these days?

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