Night Flying In Class G Airspace

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Lambada Crazy
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Night Flying In Class G Airspace

Post by Lambada Crazy » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:18 am

Hi Guys,

Can anybody help me here,
In Ireland, flights at night can only be permitted in Controlled Class C Airspace. Meaning you can only fly at night when there is ATC at your approved airport, be it cork, shannon waterford etc.

In the Uk However, it is a different story, as far as i am aware any pilot, who holds a current night qualification, can file an IFR flight plan to another airport and fly under night visual conditions.

Why cant this be likewise here? We seem to be the only country that i can find who impose this limitation.

Anyone here think we should be able and put it to the IAA?

LC
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Post by cubpilot » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:19 am

It is some time since i have flown at night and i may be wrong about the uk regulations but i don't think that it is a requirement to even file a flight plan for night vfr.

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night

Post by hum » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:38 pm

My understanding about this is that there is no such thing, anywhere, as 'Night VFR' Flights in the dark can only be done under IFR, or where available, 'special VFR'. In Ireland SVFR is only available in Class 'C' airspace.

I believe that in the UK (and other countries) a PPL holder with a night rating can actually fly under IFR whilst remaining VMC...

Perhaps a reasonable way forward here might be to request to be allowed to fly IFR in 'VMC' outside controlled airspace...

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Post by cubpilot » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:55 pm

Hum, does that mean the uk 'flying ifr but in vmc' requires a flight plan and for any instruemnt rating?
it all sounds a bit of a muddle.

i am going back to days at blackbush when the flying school suggested i get a night rating, most of the trainig time was circuits ( goosnecks for lights) but we also had to do one cross country flight. i don't remember having to file any flight plan for ifr though and my instructor thought it would be a good wheeze to cross central london from leavesdon to biggin hill.

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Post by Untouchable » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:16 pm

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Post by Pilot » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:02 pm

How it works in the UK is that anyone can fly IFR outside controlled airspace, provided you remain in VMC. Inside control zones a UK pilot can request SVFR to fly at night.

Technically an IFR flight plan is required, however an "abbreviated" flight plan is acceptable for this purpose. In the UK radio contact with your call sign is considered an abbreviated flight plan. (This is not a full flight plan passed via the radio, but an abbreviated flight plan).

Now an IAA issued JAR pilot can do the same thing. An IAA issued JAR licence also allows a pilot to fly under IFR where it's required to comply with local regulations. So it would on first sight seem to allows us to do the same thing as in the UK. But then in the Rule of the Air order, there is a little catch brought in, which says that if an EI registered aircraft, or any other aircraft flow in Irish airspace is being flown under IFR, then the pilot must hold an IR. This bit stops us doing the same thing as in the UK.

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Post by Lambada Crazy » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:55 pm

So how do we get it changed?
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Post by hibby » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:38 pm

AIC 13/92 refers to VFR flight at night, and states that it can only happen as SVFR. Has that been superseded?

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Post by Pilot » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:24 am

hibby wrote:AIC 13/92 refers to VFR flight at night, and states that it can only happen as SVFR. Has that been superseded?


No it has not. That is still the case.

As for how to get it changed, well that's why we need a united voice through NASRAv or some other such organisation. But it appears that Irish pilots aren't interested in that. :?

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Post by flyingfarmerjo » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:50 pm

hi,

A night rating is for flying at night .The aircraft must be equipped with vfr instruments as for ppl standard. (ah, di ,vsi etc..)
Typically 5 hours on a ppl.

which state you are flying in decides whether you can fly night vfr or not.
In florida you can fly night vfr in all airspace (back when I flew there).All you had to do was file a flight plan.

It was prohibited in spain.(dont know what the story is now)

Where a night rating is needed is for an Ifr rating.Simply because if your doing an ils at night to transition from ifr to vfr you have to be night rated.Its illegal otherwise.(unless you go-around)

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Post by buggyB » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:43 pm

In the US you can fly VFR at night, no flight plan and no IFR required. Visual ground reference is usually by city light patterns when there is no moon and you also use these for navigation (that's why there are all those yellow patches on your sectional). This was pretty easy in florida, the huge ominous black region on your right is the Atlantic Ocean. No steep turns here please :)

Almost all the airports have lighting, even untowered. You activate the lights by keying the mic on CTAF frequency and can turn the intensity up or down with successive clicks. You're on short finals when everything suddenly get darker as some other git starts clicking.

I highly recommend night flying to anyone. It definately takes a leap of faith, a power failure leaves you with few options - usually highways. And when you are on an approach you fly the VASI with those 2 whites because you know the trees are there but you cannot see anthing other than the lighting. Great craic though and definately the most fun part of my PPL training.

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Post by mulreany » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:32 pm

I'm not sure of the value of night flying in class G airspace in Ireland, because most of the airports (apart from the big expensive ones) you would be flying to would be closed after dark!! :?

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Post by Untouchable » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:40 am

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Post by Dogbiscuit » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:32 pm

Am I correct in saying that Kilkenny had radio activated runway lights in the not too distance past ?

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Post by stovepipe » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:49 am

Hi there
I was talking to an old IAA man, one time, and asked him about night flying outside Class C. He said that the main reason they didn't want to allow it, was that they didn't want to have to tidy up the mess afterwards (this was back when the IAA investigated accidents), given that fellows would be trying to land on grass strips in the dark with no ATC and inadequate lighting and no fire cover. In his own words, "there's enough chancers doing that anyway without making it official"...and there were.
regards
Stovepipe

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