AOPA Ireland 2009

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inverted
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Post by inverted » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:58 am

Jim.
Lets get some facts straight.
AOPA Ireland is now being re-launched out of nowhere, by a society that no-one has ever heard and can't get any information on based in a non-EU country.... forgive my scepticism but when it comes to handing over my sub I'd like to know who's behind it !
I have no objection in the re-launching of AOPA Ireland and in the long run it should be of benefit to Irish aviators.

"So, Papa8, While you were entering your copy and paste from an independent site, you never thought to look for copyright notice, placing Yourself, This sites controllers, their servers owners and your ISP in a compromising position of infringement of copyright under the "Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000" BUT I GUESS NO-ONES PERFECT!!!! "

Take a good look at the above statement that you made Jim. You've just lost one potential member...if your going to be that aggressive quoting legislation etc as a new poster on this forum I can only imagine what the future holds for AOPA Ireland.

Best wishes and all but I'm out!

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Post by N714GZ » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:01 pm

I agree with Inverted. While I would love to see AOPA Ireland, there is no need for such an agressive approach-first impressions are lasting.

This whole thing of Universal Flights Templar ;), the lack of information and exclusivity of these types of statements: " you wont find us on any website" or "membership is by invitation only" .

I'd gladly hand over cash to a genuine AOPA Ireland, but if I don't know who's behind it, I don't know what agenda's I'm de facto supporting. Sorry, but Im not convinced.

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Post by Jim » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:04 pm

JoeMc
You are 100% correct!
RBN1 = Register a Business name, this can be done online NOT at cro.ie but core.ie
To incorporate a business name you need to register it then involve an Auditor and a Solicitor registered at CRO as "Qualified Formationer"
For our incorporation, we used our Auditors...
Aquant Business Services Ltd.
Lower Baggot St.
Dublin.

UFG have registered "AOPA Ireland" as a business name, they have also incorporated it (This is what killed it in the first place, Being Unlimited!)
They shall remain the "Owners" of the name, so no-one can ever take it from the Irish aviators again.
This COMPLETE PACKAGE.will be handed over to those who opt to signup as per our schedule on the website http://www.aopaireland.com PLUS, UFG secretary (Thats myself!) Plus the free services of our Solicitor and also our Barristor. Also that website is running on our own server, so no hosting/design/webmaster fees.
EVERYTHING, we are doing is legal and above board. We are handing the Irish Aviators the AOPA on a "Silver Platter!"


N714GZ & inverted...
You ask WHO is running AOPA
EXACTLY what part of the above do you NOT understand?

And if you believe i am wrong for pointing out that what papa8 done is illegal, That is up to this forums moderator to sort out.

as a new poster on this forum I can only imagine what the future holds for AOPA Ireland

May i inform you i was invited to visit this forum in order to address your issues!

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Post by willo » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:31 pm

Jim,
I note that you havent responded to the queries I had.

Aquant Business Services Ltd are a company formations company, not Auditors. Auditing services cannot be provided by a Limited Company.

The Business Name is registered (pending acceptance) to a Partnership, which is done via CORE

i am still intrigued how AOPA Ireland can be protected for the fliers of Ireland if it is currently being registered to a partnership, presumably UFG which is Swiss based.

AS the company is being formed, the memorandum and articles of associaiton must be available,a s must the A1. There will be available on the CRO site when incoirporated, but we could use same as basis for making a dcision on membership etc.

What tyoe of company is it to be. Often, as stated earlier, this would be done via Company Limited by Guarantee.

I would be concerned by the tenet of the discussion with Papa1 which has been confrontational and would not endear me to joining.

However, unlike the other dragons here (!) I will not say no just yet

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Post by Jim » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:21 pm

willo
Apologies, I should have said Aquant as accountants not auditors.

Your presumption on AOPA's registration is incorrect.

Yes, The records will be available on CRO as per mandatory legislation.

A Company registered by guarantee and having no share value.

The tenet provided re.papa8 was a better option than confronting the administrator.

Hopefully, willo i have cleared your list!

(AHH!...Questions are answered easier than criticism!)

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Post by OnTheNumbers » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:58 pm

Hi Jim,

Thanks for clarifying those points. You know I'd welcome a renewed and effective AOPA.

I would suggest that UFG/AOPA holds off on further comment until all paperwork and next steps are fully in place for the next phase or the communications schedule.

I think given the disappointments of the past , people would like to be able to verify for themselves the details of UFG's offer to the aviation community of Ireland.

In relation to citing the copyright laws; in the interest of reporting and robust discussion, I think attributed quoting of what is essentially a public notice could be allowed without reprimand.

It's good to see continued attempts to establish GA representation.

David
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Post by inverted » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:50 pm

Jim.

When I asked the question as to who is running AOPA Ireland I was giving you to opportunity to give all the readers here a little more information on the members of the board, i.e. they have been involved in aviation in Ireland for x amount of years...etc but instead of taking this opportunity you decided to SHOUT at both myself and N714GZ in a derogatory and uncouth fashion. I’m not stupid and I don’t appreciate being shouted at !

Whether what Papa8 did was illegal or not, is not my gripe. It is the way you arrogantly quoted chapter and verse of the law, and then followed up the legal rant with another derogatory remark, this time aimed at the moderators of Flying in Ireland .“And if you believe i am wrong for pointing out that what papa8 done is illegal, That is up to this forums moderator to sort out”

Your attitude to the people on this site simply appals me. I think it is most unbecoming of a representative of AOPA to have the audacity to SHOUT at people on a public forum.

It may be that you were invited on to this forum to address some issues but it does not give you the right to post replys such as" EXACTLY what part of the above do you NOT understand? "

Need I remind you that you are restarting an organsiation that will be representing Irish Aviators......Well with an attitude like that you can rest assured that you'll have a long raod ahead of you to get the numbers up !

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Post by Papa8 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:55 pm

Source: Copyright and related rights Act 2000 Section 51

Fair dealing: criticism or review.
51.—(1) Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of criticism or review of that or another work or of a performance of a work shall not infringe any copyright in the work where the criticism or review is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement.
(2) Fair dealing with a work (other than a photograph) for the purpose of reporting current events shall not infringe copyright in that work, where the report is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement.

(3) In this Part, “sufficient acknowledgement” means an acknowledgement identifying the work concerned by its title or other description and identifying the author unless—

(a) in the case of a work which has been lawfully made available to the public, it was so made available anonymously, or

(b) in the case of a work which has not been made available to the public, it is not possible for a person without previous knowledge of the facts to ascertain the identity of the author of the work by reasonable enquiry.

It only takes two things to fly:--- airspeed and money.

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Post by captain slow » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:17 pm

Wow !

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Post by Jim » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:17 pm

On The Numbers

You are so right David, Thank You!
anyway wont have the time for next few days.

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Post by Raven 912 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:25 pm

I have been watching this thread with interest for a while. There are some points which I wish to make and which may bore some of you. If they do then please feel free to move on. :lol:

I have been heavily involved with European Microlight Federation, Europe Air Sports and EASA for 4 years now including MDM032 and am up to speed with all EASA NPA's, CRD's, EU Commission, Council of Ministers etc and I have problems with some of the comments in AOPA Ireland's statement which kicked off this thread. My comments inserted **


All General Aviation in Ireland is controlled by the Bodies of Government within.

** Not true. GA in Ireland is fully controlled by the IAA, the only Semi State body to be fully autonamous and as such are not answerable to the Government or the Ombudsman for that matter.

Many regulations are passed by separate bodies of the EU and our own Government, without any consultation with the General Aviators of Ireland.
This is primarily because, our government will only recognize "Officially Registered Organizations" who have a voice at International level. Any other level is deemed useless.

** Who are these bodies? Regulations may well be passed by seperate bodies but to my knowlege not aviation regulations. EASA present opinions to the Commission only having consulted with ALL stakeholders in the EU including Ireland. Whether or not we choose to participate is neither here nor there. Our Government only sign off on what is passed by the Council of Ministers and subsequently rubber stamped by the EU Parliament usually 12 months after it has been passed.
As pointed out above, it really doesn't matter whether the Government recognize organisations or not. Dealing will either be done with EASA or the IAA.

Ireland DOES NOT presently have an officially recognized General Aviation representative body.

Yes they do!!!!!! The National Aero Club of Ireland who's effectiveness may well be questionable but I believe this is solely down to the lack of support from the GA community. You will not be recognized by FAI or have any involvement in CANS or CIMA unless you are affiliated to NACI so they are a recognised representative body.

Previously, such a body did exist, they were the AOPA (Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association) and, it is strongly believed that this body may still be in existance. They are no longer affiliated to the International governing body, and have not contacted them for some Years, and obviously, no longer represent Irish General Aviation.

** True

There are however, many splinter groups of aviators within Ireland. The majority of these have visions of Authority and Leadership. But they lack the main ingredients.

** I would strongly argue this point. NMAI have absolutely no delusions of grandure and certainly do not lack any ingredients. I stand to be corrected but I dont know of any other group who have been as active both at home and abroad over the past 6 years.

The aviators of Ireland are basically at the mercy of a closed regime and the higher authorities are very satisfied with this arrangement.

** Again true but only because, for some reason, Irish Aviators seem to have difficulties standing together.

BUT.....
What can be done? What are the alternatives?
1..Establish a representative body!..........We do not believe that any newly constructed body would be accepted at upper levels.

** Is this proposed body not newly constructed.

2..Offshore Representation!....................This is unlikely to work as these bodies would not be recognized by irish goverment.

** For Irish Government see above.

3..Do the general aviation personnel of Ireland want a representative body? and will they want to join the membership of such a body?
If your answer is YES to both questions in 3 above, thats half the battle.

** Only if that representative body can show that they have the credentials, the experience at the top levels in the EU and the expertise in domestic and EU aviation politics.

So!
Lets take the bull by the horns, and give them the opportunity to prove that Irish Aviators are a force to be reckoned with!
This must be done in a full, democratic, unbiased and legal pattern.
We must be recognized as the official body at National and International levels.
This body must have a genuine and trustworthy Committee with its own constitution.
Affiliation to International governing bodies is a MUST.

** NACI would be a start
** So far for me this whole thread has been about registering a company. Nothing about how aviation issues will be tackled. It could well be 3 years too late with EASA NPA's almost finalised.
NMAI have tirelessly campaigned for all other GA groups to follow our lead in Europe where we have definitely had a voice but to no avail.

The whole opening statement says to me that the people involved are maybe not up to speed although I do welcome the sentiment.
Sorry for boring you to tears :shock:

All the best

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Post by Raven 912 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:44 pm

Hi Jim.
You say inone of your earlier Posts

I note and acknowledge your comments, and thank you for your support.
Some members of NMAI have met and spoke to us on a "Casual" basis.
We have made it a point of acknowledging all forms of aviation.

To avoid any confusion this sounds to me as if NMAI endorse the new company. I'm not saying thats what was meant, just thats how it looks.

For the record. The committee of the NMAI are not aware of any contact and have made no endorsement of the company.
As per my earlier post.......the jury is out for now

All the best
Paul
Chairman
NMAI

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Post by Raven 912 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:48 pm

Papa 8 wrote

The NMAI (of which I am not a member) has been acknowledged publicly by the IAA as easily the fastest growing sector of private aviation and I have felt welcome as a non-microlight pilot when attending events they have organised. Nothing in my experience so far suggests that they are lacking any ingredients or have visions of authority.

Thanks Papa 8. Feedback is always welcome. We have many more events in the pipeline and it is our pleasure to offer these to aviators.....microlight or not

All the best
Paul

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Post by willo » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:01 am

Couple of my queries still unanswered:


What is launching on May 1st?


announcemet on 12th February

I never saw/heard the announcement, was it made in Irish Media? First I ever heard of this proposal was original post here. Didnt see it in any of the irish flying magazines, did you contact the editor or General Aviation Editor of Flying in Ireland?

Excellent post by Raven 912. I think the NACI is the umbrella body for all flying sectors (form balloon through hang-gliding, parachuting etc, but I could be wrong). I think that NASRAv is affiliated to same, so per Raven 912's post, would have official recognition.

Raven 912 also raised the issue if the GA community seek representation. This has been the subject of a previous post,, and Jim, I suggest you review same.
Microlighters seek and and have got representation through the NMAI, and continue to be very active & proactive. It would not appear to be the same with GA community, with the exception of SAAC

For an organisation created (in name) on February 12th, and launching May 1st, there is very little information, some of that information is subject to many questions, and the little bit of communicaiton with the GA community (which only started less than week ago) has been very poor

Think I'm out


[/quote]

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GA Representation - more than you'd think...

Post by hum » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:38 am

Actually the former SAAC and the Classic and Aerobatic Association of Ireland recently combined. The new combined body has:

1. Its own airfield
2. A significant number of members - most of whom own their own aircraft, many of whom have their own airstrip. (the former CAACI e-mail distribution list alone had 98 addressees).
3. Engineers authorised by the IAA to inspect members' aircraft with a view to both the issue and renewal of permits to fly.

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