Training on Vintage Aircraft

This is a forum for discussing General Aviation in Ireland

Moderator: mark

Post Reply
Papa8
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:00 pm
Location: Inside P8
Contact:

Training on Vintage Aircraft

Post by Papa8 » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:28 pm

Other countries manage to train people for PPL instruction on a number of classic or vintage aircraft. Why is it not currently available here?

Aircraft that come to mind are the Tiger Moth and Piper Cub. An aircraft can't be on a flight permit for PPL(A) although some vintage aircraft could conceivably be considered microlights couldn't they?

What vintage aircraft are there that qualify for a C of A? Piper Cubs are apparently all on flight permits. In the UK it is possible to learn to fly in at least a Chipmunk and a Tiger Moth and presumably there are others?

Vintage aircraft lose competitiveness over modern aircraft when it comes to maintenance (at least on a CofA) but what would be the most sensible choice for a club to operate a vintage aircraft for training.

My own thinking was that a Stampe would be quite a good choice: Gypsy Major Engine is still easy enough to get parts and it is apparently easier to get the hang of compared to a Moth. The Auster gets a lot of praise but it perhaps has a flight permit like the Cub. It just seems to me that there could very well be a market that is not tapped here. In New Zealand where I am from there is a magical place in the South Island called Wanaka which trains pilots on Chipmunks if they wish but then again the scenery and weather is a little different.

Anyone else got vintage suggestions keeping in mind a C of A for PPL A, maintenance, running costs, flight envelope?

I realise that CAACI now part of the ILAA would be the people to talk to but I am just dreaming here and thought a discussion might be interesting.
It only takes two things to fly:--- airspeed and money.

j3cub

Post by j3cub » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:02 pm

Post Removed

Papa8
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:00 pm
Location: Inside P8
Contact:

Post by Papa8 » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:12 pm

Thanks J3Cub,

Not really a runner for a club then. I understand the Tiger Moth is on a C of A and there are sources for parts but yes the high hourly rates (€200 plus per hour) for them is not related to direct running costs but tied up in the maintenance, i.e. engineers.

I wonder if there is such a thing as a vintage (J3/Moth/Auster/Bucker/Pietonpol/Stampe owners close your ears) replica factory-built C of A i.e most of the thrills with less support problems? Probably not otherwise clubs would have seized on this kind of flying training already. I know there is a Bucker Jungmann in Sligo Flying Club but clearly for the owner's use or PPL holders. I just think vintage would be in many cases (like gliders too) a good grounding in rudder control, approach speed control and keeping the head out of the cockpit-itis that as an SPL I have been guilty of up until recently. There is a motivational 'spirit' in flying around in these things that arguably is matched in some microlights but not in modern tricycle composite aircraft.

Guess it is motivation though to progress flying post-PPL. What does the Beagle Pup come under if anyone happens to know?

EDIT: I should of course mention that in answering my own question here that there is the Champion series of aircraft that might fit this description
It only takes two things to fly:--- airspeed and money.

kilo delta
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 10:29 pm
Location: Athlone

Post by kilo delta » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:33 pm


j3cub

Post by j3cub » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:45 pm

Post Removed

jimbors250
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:43 pm

cessna

Post by jimbors250 » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:39 pm

Hi ! , i was thinking of a Cessna 120 on a permit !! is it possible to train on this machine for the iaa ppl and if not is it possible to train on this here with an American instructor !! for the American ppl .
thanks for any advice

buggyB
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:17 pm
Location: Limerick

Post by buggyB » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:58 pm

Not sure if you can train towards a licence or rating on any permit aircraft, I think that an aerial work CofA is required.

In addition training will require the use of certain instruments which may not be fitted to vintage aircraft. I knew a student in the UK who did his initial hours on a Super Cub (with appropriate CofA) but had to convert to a C172 for the Nav exercises and required instrument time.

j3cub

Post by j3cub » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:19 pm

Post Removed

kilo delta
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 10:29 pm
Location: Athlone

Post by kilo delta » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:28 pm

kilo delta wrote:How about a "new" cub.....?

http://www.legend.aero/default.asp

http://www.cubcrafters.com/


Here's another...a Luscombe http://www.luscombe-silvaire.com/

OnTheNumbers
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:09 pm
Location: Dublin
Contact:

Post by OnTheNumbers » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:57 am

eh, Renaussance Luscombe, nah, a proper vintage Luscombe is the way to go.

good grounding in rudder control, approach speed control and keeping the head out of the cockpit-itis that as an SPL I have been guilty of up until recently


Speed control and keeping your head out of the cockpit are equally important in tricycle aircraft. As for the rudder control, you're right, tailwheel types generally require more attention in that department.

However, the habits (good or bad) you pick up on the way to the PPL can all be unlearned. If I were you, I'd make things easy, do the training on whatever aircraft is available to you. By all accounts converting to tailwheel post-PPL won't be that much of a chore but trying to organise your ab initio PPL training on a conventional gear (tailwheel :-) )aircraft would be.
OnTheNumbers
-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.clearofcloud.ie
@clearofcloud on Twitter, Instagram

Papa8
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:00 pm
Location: Inside P8
Contact:

Post by Papa8 » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:31 am

Thanks OTN,

By approach speed control I was thinking of aircraft without flaps. I was not really thinking of doing all training on vintage types but just thinking that if a portion of training early-on was set aside on tailwheel types it would serve as a good platform.

Keeping the head out of the cockpit was just a reference to having less instruments in some of these types that tends to make it clearer that as VFR pilots we can largely fly a perfectly adequate circuit from our attitude to the horizon, the power setting and occasional reference to asi, alt and vsi. What I tend to find myself fighting from time to time (not so bad lately) is an obsession with watching ASI on climbout, watching DI in the circuit generally (instead of picking up my relation to the runway from the wingtip/guessing the drift) etc. My instructor has on a couple of occasions covered up numerous instruments on approach just to see if I could land without all the attention to the cockpit.

Just the skill of navigating by compass/watch when other instruments are inoperative (how many people actually have the skills from their PPL training to average out compass readings in turbulent/convective air for a workable reading from regularly referencing it throughout the flight?)

But you are right it appears to be a chore. I wonder if there is any yet-to-be decided element of vintage aircraft training in EASA. It would be nice for example to have a small concession made to licensing that allowed say up to five hours dual on a permit vintage aircraft should someone wish to opt for this even if they are not an owner and there is no C of A. It would require the flight instructor to be prepared to offer this too. Could anyone see the IAA granting this kind of concession or is it a no-go territory?

Post-PPL the option is there i.e. tailwheel/differences training but often unless flying variety like this is introduced early on it becomes an unknown experience to many pilots. So many pilots get their PPL but procrastinate over what to get involved in afterwards and just simply hire the club spam can because they never got introduced to anything else and then intimidate themselves into the idea of broadening their horizons beyond what they learnt on.

In a way microlight licensing has brought some of this back to aviation. AFAIK they are permitted to train students in permit aircraft. How many microlights though are flown (unintentionally or otherwise) through a bending of the rules e.g. outside their c of g limits/useful load.
It only takes two things to fly:--- airspeed and money.

OnTheNumbers
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:09 pm
Location: Dublin
Contact:

Post by OnTheNumbers » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:38 pm

How many microlights though are flown (unintentionally or otherwise) through a bending of the rules e.g. outside their c of g limits/useful load.


In defense of our microlight breathern, I'll lay money that it doesn't happen any more frequently in a microlight than it does when two stocky blokes get into a fully fueled C150/152/[Insert 2-seat trainer name here] and take off.

Just get comfortable with flapless landings, they're really no different from a speed perspective, there's just a different perspective out the window - I think they're fun myself.
As for any overy dependency on flight instruments in the circuit, that will pass.

Nice to see there are still people coming up through the ranks who want to keep the vintage stuff flying. I should be joining the non-gyroed, tailwheel brigade myself very shortly. WooHoo.
OnTheNumbers
-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.clearofcloud.ie
@clearofcloud on Twitter, Instagram

ifty
Unverified User
Unverified User
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:24 pm
Location: Mayo

Post by ifty » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:31 pm

I started my flying with gliders and I would say, for sure, it is a far better way to start and would encourage anybody who has not done so to try gliding at least to solo level.
You pass this way but once, there is no such thing as normal. There is you and the rest, now and forever. Do as you damn well please or you could end up being a pot-bellied, hairless boring old fart.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests