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first flying job

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:45 pm
by liam murray
Hi
I am sure a lot of you will know the answer to this.if i compleated my ATPL,could i then apply to the airlines for a job.How do i get a rating and how much does it cost and can you do it in Ireland?
Has anyone compleated thier training here and got a position with aer arran or ryanair?
What is the salary for a first year pilot?
Also one more thing,does anyone how many hours a week you work for the above,and how many hours you would spend away from home eg.overnights.thanks

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:02 pm
by RickL
Hi Liam

You could, upon completion of your atp's, apply for a job with any airline. However, most of the big airlines will not accept you with just minimum atp qualifications, you would likely need to work as an instructor to build hours before you would get considered for the likes of Ryanair. Even if Ryanair did accept you, you then have to pay for your rating with them (which is about twice as much as you could get it done for independently) I'm not sure what the first year salary would be like but it certainly wouldn't put you in a porsche with a cute blonde.

As for overnights, that depends on who you are with and where you are based. If you are a Dublin based Ryanair pilot for instance, it is unlikely you would spend very many nights away from home, obviously for longer haul flights this would involve night stops.

To go from zero to ATPL is probably going to cost you somewhere in the region of ?90k, that is including all other non-flying expenses like accomodation near a school and food etc. There are a couple of places in Ireland that do the training, I don't know anything about any of them and so can't make a recommendation. Also, easyJet currently have a cadet program in place, details on their website: www.easyjet.co.uk

Training is generally cheaper in the US but if you want to fly for a european airline you will need a JAA licence rather than an FAA (FAA is the american standard, its basically exactly the same licence but you know bureaucracy) you can also do you JAA licence in the US and benefit from lower flying costs. The Delta Connections academy is probably the best known school in America, being owned by Delta Connections (a subsidary of Delta Airlines). My ex-girlfriend got pricing from them and it worked out around ?100k all-in (accomodation, living, JAA & FAA atpls) but that is on the expensive side - the upshot being they gurantee you an interview for Delta or one of its sisters, they also pretty much guarantee to hire you as an instructor so you can build hours.

I'm sure other people on the forum will have opinions and better information, me not being an airline pilot (though I have toyed with the idea and have gone up to CPL/IR) somewhat limits my knowledge of the subject.

Hope I helped, blue skies,

Rick

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:54 pm
by AndyMax
Ryanair want 25000EURO to type rate you
IF they take you on with minimum atpl's

spot on with the info Rick

Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:11 am
by Cosmic
Rick L, I need to take issue with some points in your posting as they are wrong and misleading.

From the top. Instructing is a noble trade and a very hard way to earn your weeks wages. It was the well worn route in the past but recently people have
been taking instructor hours less seriously. Its another topic altogether and I don't really want to get side tracked. Ryanair have taken plenty of guys and gals on with the bare minimums. My point is that having instructor hours gives no distinct advantage to an applicant. Its wrong but its true.

Ryanair have no scheduled overnights. So you wont be getting to see the world, but a lot of airports, sometimes numerous times in one day. Ryanair have also lead the way in charging new recruits for type ratings, A type rating is training you need to fly an airliner, in this case the 737-800. The vast majority now charge for these and they are eye wateringly expensive. Ryanait charge for the type rating AND the line training. The cost is closer to Euro 40,000.

if you want to fly for a european airline you will need a JAA licence rather than an FAA (FAA is the american standard, its basically exactly the same licence but you know bureaucracy)


An Faa licence in Europe is not even worth the paper it is printed on. I have Faa licences and I found them to be the most practical. Again thats a
discussion for anther day. What you may be confused about is JAA licence s in the US. There are a number of schools licenced and approved by the CAA, the British Aviation Authourity. These licences are perectly acceptable in Europe.

the upshot being they gurantee you an interview for Delta or one of its sisters


As an Irish Citizen this door is closed to you. This is for people who have the right to live and work in the US. To be honest the place is a factory pumping out guys at a furious rate. I can't remember the exact figures but thousands have gone through and they take maybe less than 50 for the airline so its really a carrot they dangle to attract students. Also the Big schools like Flight Safety, Pan Am and Delta have huge overheads and massive facilities. They charge accordingly.

Having recently come through the system I would offer the following advice. Do as much research as humanly possible. There is a wealth of information on the Web. Check www.pprune.org and ask on here too of course! People are very fickle when picking schools. They go for the school with the biggest advert in the flying mags or the best website. I would stay away from the big schools. They charge $20K more for exactly the same licences. Despite what anyone says, there is no "School tie" network in Flying. No one cares where the licence comes from, it doesnt say it on the Licence.

I did all my flying in America and my IR in Ireland. When I first looked into doing it here I didnt deem the schools to be really up to scratch. I did the IR in weston and I was really amazed how things had changed. There has been a very significent investment in the place. They had a proper sim. There is going to be proper radio nav. aids soon.

My point is that had it been like that when I was leaving I might have stayed and done it all here. I am also able to live at home instead of living in the US for 14 months. I estimate this would have saved me about $15-20K. Although training is far cheaper in the US this might have balanced it out. I would have also have been able to continue working and earning some money.

Phew!!!! Thats a lot t get off my chest. Longest post ever on Flyinginireland?

If you have any more questions Liam fire away and I will certainly have a go.

Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 am
by RickL
Cosmic,

Thanks for your long retort, can you answer something for me? Do you work for Ryanair?

Being familiar with the reason behind charging people for type ratings, I can tell you that Ryanair 'leading the way' is not really true. They are doing it because there is a glut of pilots at the moment and Mick sees an opportunity to make a few bob while getting recruits, I'm not discussing the morales of it, I'm just saying that is the reason. You can get your type rating for a lot less from other sources and many airlines will take pilots with type ratings already, namely EasyJet to mention one other large low-cost carrier. I'll bet my bottom dollar that if a pilot shortage returns, Ryanair will be the first people to pay a lump-sum to get type rated pilots to the airline.

And where are you getting your pricing from? A 737-400 simulator type rating (which is what is used nowadays) can be had for circe $15,000 in the US. The 800 sims are more rare I'll agree, but again, to say that Ryanair are going to give it to you at cost would not be true.

FAA licences can be used to fly FAA registered aircraft commercially anywhere in the world, including Europe, I can tell you this from experience, so it is very much worth the paper it is printed on.

Like I said, I have no experience flying for an airline (nor do I want it) so if I'm wrong about scheduled overnights (I don't actually remember saying there were any scheduled overnights) then fine. I also never said instructing was not an honourable occupation, I think it's wonderful that people do it but many people (if not most people) use it as a method to build hours, not for the love of teaching. Nobody can disagree with that.

Blue skies Cosmic

Rick

Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:02 pm
by Cosmic
RickL, I think you are mistaking my motives. The idea was to clear up some wrong information, nt to have a go at you.

When I said that Ryanair were leading the way in charging for type ratings I did not mean it in a good way. It seems to have had a knock on effect in the rest of the industry.

You can get your type rating for a LOT less in the US. These are FAA type ratings. Why there is such a difference in price is anyones guess. But the rule I apply isto take the price for anything FAA and multiply by at least 2. :? Ryanair and Easy want to do their own type rating and Line training. Also a person who comes along with a self sponsered TR with zero hours on the type is useless. It seems that they want to train you "their way" Its a high risk strategy to take. Don't forget that Ryan charge for the Line Training aswell.

Your quoted price is for a 737-400. Ryanair have 200 and 800 series. ALthough there are some other types from their takeover of Buzz I think these are lamost all gone.

I am not doubting that you can use FAA licences in europe. The chances are very slim though.

I feel we are getting side tracked here. Back to the original topic?