Free Landings at all Airports*-terms and conditions apply

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cubpilot
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Post by cubpilot » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:18 pm

As i have got involved in this discussion, and have recent first hand experience of diverting i fully agree with the proposal that fees should be waived for genuine diversions.
Although Charles Strasser is a leading light in AOPA Uk, I think that to get the ball rolling in the Uk he did most of the leg work himself by hammering on the doors of airfield owners and managers. Once a neucleus of airfields had been signed up then publicity was given in order to name and shame the reluctant organisations.
I am afraid to say that just by writing about it in a magazine will not have any effect at all.
Living in UK as I do, I cannot put my hand up and volunteer to do the rounds, but something like this will only happen if one or two individuals are prepared to put in the effort. However they do need to be part of an organisation to be effective which is probaly where FII comes into the picture.
The initial targets should be IAA to gain official backing and then the principle airports. the latter being those places with atc services that will be involved in assisting the pilot in trouble.
To those who feel that this is not worth the bother just remember the other guy who may be worried about costs or even the legality of flying into a big airport when in marginal conditions.

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Post by tally1 » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:46 pm

Very good suggestion............does anyone know who the best person would be to get in contact with in the IAA regards this?.Which dept even?

I know the IAA dont charge to land anywhere or charge for their atc service to vfr traffic or indeed ifr below a certain weight but if you could get a letter from them backing this then it would greatly help when contacting the DAA,SAA cork kerry galway etc.

I enclose a aopauk pdf outlinin the scheme.

http://www.aopa.co.uk/scripts/pdf/campaign_s.pdf

and the text in case the link doesnt work as its a pdf.


8th May 2008 - UPDATE - Now 195!
The Isle of Man airport just joined Charles Strasser's campaign on behalf of AOPA
to get all airfields to accept CAA CAP 667 9.2(c) recommendation and not to charge GA
aircraft making an emergency or precautionary diversion landing there.
To the 8th May 2008, no less than 195 airfields have agreed this potentially life
saving measure.

The 159 civil airfields, in alphabetical order, are - Aberdeen, Aberporth, Alderney,
Andrewsfield, Ashcroft, Audley-End, Bagby, Barra, Barrow, Barton, Belfast-City,
Belle-Vue, Bembridge, Benbecula, Beverley, Blackbushe, Blackpool, Bodmin, Bourn,
Bournemouth, Breighton, Brimpton, Bristol-Intl., Brough, Bruntingthorpe,
Caernarfon, Cambridge, Campbeltown, Chalgrove, Charterhall, Chester-Hawarden,
Clacton, Compton-Abbas, Coventry, Cranfield, Cromer, Cumbernauld, Davidstow-
Moor, Denham, Derby, Dornoch, Dunsfold, Duxford, Eaglescott, East-Midlands,
Eday, Eddsfield, Edinburgh, Elmsett, Elstree, Enniskillen, Enstone, Fair-Isle,
Fairoaks, Farnborough, Farway-Common, Fenland, Fife, Finmere, Fowlmere, Full-
Sutton, Glasgow, Glenforsa, Goodwood, Guernsey, Hanley, Hardwick, Haverfordwest,
Henstridge, Hinton/Hedges, Inverness, Islay, Isle-of-Gigha, Isle-of-Man, Isles-of-
Scilly, Jersey, Kemble, Kingsmuir, Kirkwall, Lamb-Holm, Lands-End, Langar, Lasham,
Lashenden-Headcorn, Lee-on-Solent, Leicester, Little-Gransden, Liverpool,
Londonderry, Ludham, Lydd, Manston, Maypole, Netherthorpe, Newcastle, Newquay,
Newtownards, Nort-Ronaldsay, North-Weald, Northampton-Sywell, Nottingham,
Oaksey-Park, Oban, Old-Sarum, Old-Warden, Oxford, Panshanger, Papa-Westray,
Pembray, Perranporth, Perth, Peterborough-Conington, Peterborough-Sibson,
Plymouth, Popham, Prestwick, Redhill, Retford-Gamston, Rochester, Sanday,
Sandtoft, Seething, Sheffield, Sherburn-in-Elmet, Shipdham, Shobdon, Shoreham,
Sleap, Southampton, Southend, Stansted, Stapleford, Stornoway, Stronsay,
Sturgate, Sumburgh, Swansea, Tatenhill, Thruxton, Tiree, Top-Farm, Truro,
Turweston, Walton-Wood, Warton, Wellesbourne, Welshpool, Westray, White-
Waltham, West-Freugh, Wick, Wolverhampton, Wombleton, Woodford, Wycombe-
Air-Park, Yeovil, York-Rufforth.
/2
2/
And all 36 MILITARY MOD airfields - ROYAL AIR FORCE - RAF Benson, RAF Brize
Norton, RAF Colerne, RAF Coltishall, RAF Coningsby, RAF Cosford, RAF Cottesmore,
RAF Cranwell, RAF Halton, RAF Henlow, RAF Honington, RAF Kinloss, RAF Leeming,
RAF Feuchars, RAF Linton on Ouse, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Lyneham, RAF Marham,
RAF Newton, RAF Northolt, RAF Odiham, RAF St.Athan, RAF St.Mawgan, RAF
Scampton, RAF Shawbury, RAF Valley, RAF Waddington, RAF Wittering, RAF
Woodvale, RAF Wyton. ROYAL NAVAL AIR STATION - RNAS Culdrose, RNAS
Yeovilton. ARMY - Dishforth, Middle Wallop, Netheravon, Wattisham.
This concession applies to genuine emergencies and diversions to airfields other than
the destination and the filed alternate airport.

Wide awareness means that GA pilots in a difficult situation can at least eliminate
the cost factor as a potential worry.
Publishers of Airfield Data have been asked to
highlight this safety concession and so far Aerad, AFE and Pooleys have agreed
to do this in their “VFR Flight Guide”. No Response from Jeppesen/Bottlang.
Unfortunately
15 Airports/Airfields have so far decided that they will not implement the CAP
667 9.2(c) recommendations. Hopefully they will have a change of heart and join the
majority of UK airfields that have.
Belfast-Intl., Biggin-Hill, Birmingham, Cardiff, Carlisle, Dundee, Exeter, Filton,
Gloucestershire, Humberside, Leeds/Bradford, London-Luton, Manchester,
Norwich, Teesside.
And
3 Airports have not been approached - London Heathrow, City and Gatwick.
In recognition of their outstanding contribution to UK General Aviation
Flight Safety, AOPA has presented a “Flight Safety Award” Certificate
to each of the 195 Aerodrome operators above, who have fully
accepted CAA CAP 667 9.2(c) recommendation not to levy any fees
from a General Aviation pilot who makes a genuine emergency or
diversionary landing at their Aerodrome.

The full CAA CAP 667 9.2(c) recommendation states:-“There were a number of
fatal accidents where a timely diversion or precautionary landing could have avoided
an accident. In the UK there is a ‘culture’ of pressing on and hoping for the best
rather accepting the inconvenience and cost of a diversion. This ‘culture’ needs to
be changed, firstly by educating pilots and secondly by persuading Aerodrome
owners that there should be no charge for emergency landings or diversions. It is
recommended that all Aerodrome owners be persuaded to adopt a policy that there
should be no charges for emergency landings or diversions by general aviation
aircraft.”
Aopalh100.doc

To all Editors: It would be appreciated if you would publish for the benefit
of GA private pilots, the latest list of both the 195 airports who have agreed
to waive charges for emergency and precautionary diversion landings and
the 15 airports who so far have refused to do so.

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Post by ifty » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:33 pm

tally1 wrote: While in theory thats the way it should be aopa are defunct and have been for years.

There is still not a single post from anyone claiming to represent Nasrav with advice or even an opinion on it. I can only conclude that they are effectively defunct too. Its all very well saying that a particular organisation should do it but when it appears dead what options do you face?

By saying that Aopa or Nasrav should back it in effect means nothing will ever come of it and the idea will die.

So it comes full circle to the starting point again-if its a good idea then what is the best ,quickest and most efficient way of achieving this?


You are making a lot of noise about who should take this daunting task on, why do YOU not start the campaign off?
You pass this way but once, there is no such thing as normal. There is you and the rest, now and forever. Do as you damn well please or you could end up being a pot-bellied, hairless boring old fart.

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Post by tally1 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:23 pm

Ifty, how do you know I haven't already started the ground work on this? In case you havent noticed canvassing fellow flyers who might be grateful of this one day is indeed a first step so no need to get your knickers in a twist mate!

The fact of the matter is that aopa and nasrav are not effective. End of.
Aopa died years ago and have YOU looked at Nasrav's section here or indeed their 'new' website? Not exactly inspiring.

So in the absence of any representative body how does our group lobby effectively?. Or are you happy with letting things slide?.

The thing is there are many individuals who might be prepared to put in the leg work and knock on doors if and only if they knew that they had a bit of support. The power of the media should never be underestimated. Hence the idea of getting FI involved.

The brits have done a lot of the hard work already with their scheme. It even comes witha CAA document to back it up. All we need to do is bring it over here.

It is at the end of the day an idea that most of us will hopefully never benfit from but it sure would be nice to have it if needed. I think its achievable but only with the right backing from the right sources.

Next time ifty just try and be more constructive.

This thread isnt exactly generating much traffic. The only person in open support of this is someone who is familiar with the scheme in the UK and has recent experience of needing to divert.

Is this seen as something that will never get used? Or something that will never get implemented? Or something i dont give two hoots about one way or the other? If it were introduced would you as flyers welcome this?

ifty
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Post by ifty » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:33 pm

tally1 wrote:Ifty, how do you know I haven't already started the ground work on this? In case you havent noticed canvassing fellow flyers who might be grateful of this one day is indeed a first step so no need to get your knickers in a twist mate!


Next time ifty just try and be more constructive.


Yes thats entirely constructive tally1 isnt it? If you have already started canvassing or whatever, why not just say that you have, and are looking at a kind of consultation phase if you like, or just come out and ask who would be interested in helping out.
You pass this way but once, there is no such thing as normal. There is you and the rest, now and forever. Do as you damn well please or you could end up being a pot-bellied, hairless boring old fart.

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Post by tally1 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:01 pm

I was wondering when the bitch fest would start :roll:

Its good to get a reaction tho! But i dont want this gettin personal or turning into a bitch fest as often happens on forums.

Listen i havent asked anyone to help me out nor do I intend to. Of course if someone offers then fine. Also if i can do this and protect my anonymity then thats what i want. This isnt a glorious run for fame or anything. I would love to see this implemented as a small concession to the GA community here. Thats all.

Im man enough to apologise if i have been patronising or upset anyone in any way.

But what is required is constructive feedback . Im asking questions here of people who by reason of being here must fly. It is their opinions that matter on whether this is worthwhile or not. It appears that the great majority have no opinion either way.

But if it was implemented would it be welcomed?


PS. No hard feelings ifty

ifty
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Post by ifty » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:20 pm

My life is too short to be getting upset about an anonymous internet forum, and from my experience of flying circles apathy seems to be the common denominator amongst pilots.
You pass this way but once, there is no such thing as normal. There is you and the rest, now and forever. Do as you damn well please or you could end up being a pot-bellied, hairless boring old fart.

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Post by willo » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:47 am

Tally1

Have you considered why NASRav is regarded as a failure.

Its not to do with the work and commitment of the NASRav guys, they spent alot of time drumming up support, but were met with apathy. There have been numerous threads on this forum in relation to same, and I suggets you review same.

You are adamant that FII should be involved in your quest. As stated before FII is a magazine that caters for many aspects of aviation, not just GA. I'm sure it does not seek to become a representative organisation for GA. It is there principally to entertain and inform on matters of aviation interest, and your project may fall into that from a reporting point of view.

Regarding your own project, everybody here I'm sure will wish you the best.

Effectively, there is no representative body for GA because, de facto, it does not seek representation. Whether this is good or bad is a different debate.

"I was wondering when the bitch fest would start " - what does that actually mean in this context. Ifty's comments have been fair and balanced.

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Post by jonkil » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:22 pm

This discussion boys is largely defunct.
In the context of things, Ireland has not got many airports that will have an issue with a real emergency, and even if they do I wouldn't give a flying **** (pardon the pun) !
If I have a problem, I will be putting it down safely as possible if I can, I certainly wont be fumbling through a flight guide to find an airfield that doesn't charge landing fees !!. If is a precautionary landing then I might hit nearest on the GPS and make a decision from there. A lot of the newer stuff can be put down relatively short so an airfield may not even be a requirement.
Best thing you can do... go practice FPL's before you have to do it for real, and learn how to get in in real short.

Jon

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Post by dhblewis » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:38 pm

jonkil wrote:
willo wrote: Suggest buying Kevin Glynn's book re same.


Re-print next year, you wouldn't believe how many more airfields there is that wasn't in the 1st issue.


Any idea when will it be available to buy?

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Post by Nanolight » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:10 pm

I wonder would Kevin consider a VFR Flight Guide website? It would be far more straightforward and easy to update than a book and he could fund it by charging subscriptions.

I'd say lots of people would have no probs paying a tenner or so a year instead of the twenty or thirty euro once-off for up-to-date information. You could print off pages as you needed them or all in one go or whatever.
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.

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Post by EI KEV » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:55 pm

Hi Jon, Nano, Hum & all,

NOT to go off topic (I HATE that) I have posted a reply to Nano under a new subject heading.

On this subject ...

Of course Hum (& Jon) are correct, and the costs involved in a diversion should not be a consideration.

However ...

Most times when you are in trouble, you have just experienced the first few ducks lining up (holes in the cheese) and probably don't yet believe its as bad as it is - so possibly you are still including costs in the thought process (incorrectly) So if that issue was removed from the list - it would help.
In other words .. No reason for an airfield to charge for a diversion AND no reason for the pilot to consider the costs.

Regards

Kev

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Post by HomerJay » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:01 am

You have to laugh at all the posters getting ratty over what is a perfectly valid suggestion. This is a forum for people to discuss 'Flying in Ireland' and is the perfect place for tally to test the waters on this. You need to get back over to pprune and patronise some wannabes.

To me this is a common sense issue, if a pilot has to make a diversion to an airfield in an emergency there shouldnt be someone waiting to take money off them for the privelage.

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Post by jonkil » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:41 am

HomerJay wrote:if a pilot has to make a diversion to an airfield in an emergency there shouldn't be someone waiting to take money off them for the privilege.

There won't be, and even if there is I thinking being able to pay with money is a hell of a lot cheaper than paying with your life.
The question of money would not come into the equation in this context, if it does then maybe another hobby would be more appropiate.

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