Free Landings at all Airports*-terms and conditions apply

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tally1
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Free Landings at all Airports*-terms and conditions apply

Post by tally1 » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:32 pm

Throwing this one out there and especially to Mark and those involved with Flying Ireland the magazine.

In the uk if you need to divert for any legit reason then your landing fee/approach fee/naviagtion fee is waived. A few airports were slow/reluctant to sign up but were named and shamed in the uk mags and eventually signed up. I think heathrow hasnt but since you cant fly anywhere near it doesnt matter. Luton, gatwick, stanstead have afaik all signed up.

SO WHY NOT DO THE SAME HERE?

Donegal,sligo,knock,galway,shannon,kerry,cork,waterford and dublin for starters should all be asked to waive all nav,app and landing fees for an aircraft that needs to divert to it due tech difficulties,adverse wx or any other legit reason.

The thinking behind this was that a pilot who needs to divert shouldnt need to worry about the chargers facing him if he decided to divert to EIXX eevn tho its the most suitable or nearest.

In the name of safety i think Flying Ireland should take this up and any non takers should be named and shamed.

Just throwing this out there for your opinions.....................

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Post by willo » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:26 am

Hi tally1

I would disagree with you that FII magazine should be at the vanguard of this.

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with the suggestion per se, it should be for the various representative organisations to pursue this.

This then leads on to the discussion about NASRav, AOPA etc

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Post by cubpilot » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:14 am

In september I was enroute to Waterford from Uk and less than 15 min out when I was advised the weather had dropped well below VFr limits. Shannon organised a diversion to Cork and everyone was extremely helpful. At Cork I did ask if fees were waived for wx diversions, but sadly no. As the landing fee was 18 euro and a snack lunch was thrown in I did not feel hard done by. However if the diversion option had been to Galway with their fee structure I would have been far more reluctant to pay up.

To get the 'Strasser' system into effect will need someone with the time and drive to get IAA backing and then lobby the directors of each airport to sign up.

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Priorities?

Post by hum » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:39 am

If there is a genuine reason to divert, then the last thing on the pilot's mind should be the landing fee....If the landing fee is part of the decision process then I believe it the pilot has got his priorities very wrong.
Last edited by hum on Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by tally1 » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:58 am

Hum, i agree and for that very reason knowing that the fee or fees will be waived for a genuine diversion requirement has to help.

On a personal basis,at the moment, i would just divert to the nearest and most suitable and pay whatever if required rather than risk not diverting. However as one post has already mentioned if a diversion to an extremely expensive airport is required then the thought process is one of well do i really need to or can i make it to eixx 'cos its cheaper etc etc.

The experience in the UK is that unfortunately fees to be paid occupied a much greater portion of available brain power during a diversion or possible diversion than should be the case and as such the campaign to wiave fees in such circumstances was launched. To date it has been extremely successfull and can only be considered as having a safety benefit.

To make the decision to divert to an airfield or airport and not have to even consider the fees can only be a good thing when dealing with marginal vfr weather and might* even cut down on vfr into imc flight.

As for asking the magazine to take up the running on this one i still think that flying ireland has the best chance to succeed. Nasrav and Aopa are effectively ignored by the airport operators and iAA in this country. If someone rang up an airport and said hi i represent pilots and we want to do this then the most likely response is to tell to go hump off. If a national publication rings up and says we are doing a big article,campaign,safety , safety etc etc and that if necessary a name and shame policy might apply then that is likely to have much more of an effect.

I dont want to upset anyone but this next bit might so sorry in advance......for all intents and purposes the GA representative organisations nasrav and aopa are effuectively useless,have no clout or presence,not highly organised and have very low membership. Under these conditions the media route is the quickest and most effective road to take.

Remember if only one potential accident is averted by someone diverting to a suitable airport or airfield knowing there is no fee to pay rather than pressing on then it will have been worth it. The cost to the operators is neglible.

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Post by willo » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:53 pm

The only reason NASRv has not got going is due to the apathy of the flying community out there.

To pass the torch to FII would make no sense. FII is a magazine that caters for many sections of aviaiton, and not just GA.

FII does make available its column inches for organisations such as NACI, but as stated earlier, should be the representative bodies that do the running.

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Re: Priorities?

Post by jonkil » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:00 pm

hum wrote:I there is a genuine reason to divert the last thing on the pilot's mind should be the landing fee....

My feelings exactly.

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Post by mr crow » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:16 am

.
Last edited by mr crow on Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

j3cub

Post by j3cub » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:23 am

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Post by willo » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:26 am

j3cub is quite right, as is hum.

Last thing to be considered is any potential price of the landing. If you need to get down, you should get down.

There are many airfields around the country, and whilst all are not suitable for all aircraft, an idea of what is near whilst en route whould be available. Suggest buying Kevin Glynn's book re same.

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Post by cubpilot » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:37 am

If it an aircraft related problem then there is no option but the nearest safe haven and cost does not come into the equation. weather diversions are different you should have time to mull over the options and then costs do become a factor. the experience in Uk that prompted the scheme arose out of a few of the regional airports with an anti ga attitude charging huge landing and handling fees. by huge i mean 3 figure sums. in addition low hour pilots needing controller assistance are more likely and quite thankful to be guided to a larger airport, it is then not appropriate to levy the normal fees.
returning to my diversion all those farm strips and club airfields were not an option, i was flying a heavy plane and if you cast your mind back grass fields in early sept were waterlogged. i could easily have used saac field or kilkenny but at what risk of damaging myself and aircraft.
The same will apply for many ga planes during winter months.
luckily most of irelands larger airports have sensible costs, however would it not be better to get a sytem in place before some places start to rack up their landing fees

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Post by jonkil » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:40 am

willo wrote: Suggest buying Kevin Glynn's book re same.


Re-print next year, you wouldn't believe how many more airfields there is that wasn't in the 1st issue.

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Post by tally1 » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:37 pm

Ok first things first-this was not meant to be a discussion on best diversion practice techniques. I am not going to write here that cos airport A is expensive then you should go to airport B cos it cheaper. As i have already said, personally i would go to the closest/most suitable and be damned to the costs. I would also like to clarify that i 100% concur with HUM's edited reply that any good aviator who is considering cost in the decision making process isnt thinking along the right lines.

However..........

1) Not all pilots are as experienced as some here. Hum is guy who i have the utmost respect and indeed admiration for but not all ppl's have had the benefit of one of the finest training organisations in the world or indeed the years of experience built up over 1000's of hours. A low houred ppl faced with a new unpleasant event doesnt always make the smart choice. Anything that helps that should be embraced.

2) It is very easy to say here that in any given unusual situation i would take this particular course of action unless you actually live it real time and then you might find that your real actions differ a lot/little from your imagined or planned actions. Recently some solo nav students got in a bit of a pickle when their intended refuelling stop was closed. They picked a new airfield and pressed on. While the field had fuel its not the easiest to spot from the air or find especially without gps. They made it in and all was fine but i wonder was their decision anyway influenced by fees. They bypassed a regional with huge runway.
Now i am in no way critizesing them and i hope no-one does. I cant say hand on heart that i would have made a diferrent decision but i would like to think i might have.

Anything that helps has got to be good. Even if it removes the tiniest thought of fees during the decision making process during a diversion has got to be good.

3) Again reiterating that if you need to get down you should get down to the nearest/most suitable airfield. BUT the nearest is not always the most suitable. For sure there are loads of strips around that would do in an immediate emergency but may not be entirely suitable or easily spotted.

I for instance if faced with some real bad weather would be very reluctant to fly into a strip i knew was near if i had-- a) never been there before b) might not know its length/condition c)not been briefed by the owner to watch out for the power cables etc etc etc especially knowing that there is a nice long smooth tarmac runway in clear weather 5 miles ahead but that will cost me 80 euro. So the nearest is not always the most suitable.

Indeed anyone who has had problems with their retractable undercarriage is more than grateful for a nice long runway and the attending fire service just in case.

I dont want this to get bogged down in opinion. Obviously i think its a good a idea and that FI should get involved for reasons outlined already such as they have the best chance of getting it done.

So in a nutshell is it......

1) a good idea that has merit or not?

2) The best way to achieve it assuming that it is a good idea.?

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Post by ifty » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:17 pm

It is a good idea but not one that the magazine should take up IMHO, I feel the magazine is there to entertain and elighten me about flying in Ireland. It is up to any lobbying bodies around (AOPA, NASRAV or whoever).

I really dont think that there is much need for a campaign of this sort anyway.
You pass this way but once, there is no such thing as normal. There is you and the rest, now and forever. Do as you damn well please or you could end up being a pot-bellied, hairless boring old fart.

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Post by tally1 » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:52 pm

So if its a good idea then it should be acted on.
I have noted the posts that have said it should be Nasrav and aopa (or whoever!) doing the legwork not the magazine. While in theory thats the way it should be aopa are defunct and have been for years.

There is still not a single post from anyone claiming to represent Nasrav with advice or even an opinion on it. I can only conclude that they are effectively defunct too. Its all very well saying that a particular organisation should do it but when it appears dead what options do you face?

By saying that Aopa or Nasrav should back it in effect means nothing will ever come of it and the idea will die.

So it comes full circle to the starting point again-if its a good idea then what is the best ,quickest and most efficient way of achieving this? As the representative bodies are no where to be seen then going down the media route appears the best option. The only aviation publication of note in this country is Flying Ireland.

As for the need for this maybe you are right. Maybe we dont fly in the weather conditions that require a diversion. Maybe you will never have to look at your fuel gauge and decide will i actually make it to my dest or should i pay 40- 80 euro just to land somewhere else...but i'll chance it and try and make it.....maybe you will never have a prblem with your landing gear and that your home 300meter strip will be more than long enough and sure jonny should be around to help with the fire extinguisher if it all goes horribly wrong......maybe that second engine on your twin will never give up and landing at birr with its short bumpy crosswind runway will be better than going to galway 'cos galway are so feckin expensive...etc etc

While it may never actually get used in anger it sure would be nice IF it was in place.

So in a nutshell is it......

1) a good idea that has merit or not?

2) The best way to achieve it assuming that it is a good idea.?

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