FAA PPLIR and conversion to JAA

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FAA PPLIR and conversion to JAA

Post by Bump » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:11 pm

Hi folks, just a quick question. I’d be interested to hear peoples opinion on this one…

I have an FAA PPL and am restricted to VFR day, land, etc here. I want to get IR, but how should I do it?

The way I see it, I have 3 options.

1. Convert my licence to JAA and do my IR here.
So, on that basis, where is the best place to do it? (I’m living next door to Weston). How much is it likely to cost?

2. Go to the US, do my IR there, and then convert my licence to JAA when I come back.
The only potential problem with this is that it will cost me an arm and a leg to convert to JAA. Can anyone shed any light on the process of converting a FAA PPLIR to JAA?

3. Find an FAA CFII here, do my training with them, and then convert to JAA, thus saving me the cost of having to travel to the US to do the IR.
Are there any FAA CFIIs in Ireland?

Any help/advice/criticism/abuse would be greatly appreciated! :wink:

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Post by Radar » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:45 am

Bump,

I'm in the process of completeing an FAA IR and have spoken to the IAA about subsequent conversion to JAA. The process they have outlined is completion of the IR writtens either in Ireland or the UK followed by minimum 15 hours further IR instruction with an Irish FTO leading to the IR checkride. They also suggested running this past an FTO for their take on the procedure before commirting to one route or the other. This led to a rather enlightening exchange with the head of training of a well-known training provider. Ask questions before you commit to a particular FTO.

Good luck.

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Post by Papa8 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:13 pm

Are there any FAA CFIIs in Ireland?


There are. One that I have seen can be found on Hum's website is http://www.pacnetair.com/training.html

The way I presume they provide training is by buying a fractional ownership share in say their Cessna P210N for €5,000. Loads more details there. It looks like it would cost €530 an hour in that aircraft and €30 for the instructor. The NFC website has the twin-engined Beech Duchess at €6600 for 15 hours (440 per hour) if that price is up to date. But with Pacnet you presumably get the same instructor and aircraft all the time, you part own the aircraft for 10 years and you have a FAA IR on completion. Maybe if you bought a share training could be justified in another N-reg aircaft that cost slightly less but that is just me speculating. I have no connection (other than a member of this forum) with this provider of training and I apologise if I have misrepresented the situation regarding training.
It only takes two things to fly:--- airspeed and money.

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Post by Bump » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:20 pm

Papa8/Radar, thanks for the replies.
I think in the short term I'll work towards my CPL, and then maybe in the future look at getting my IR... at the moment I don't think I'd be able to afford to keep it current! :roll:

Thanks again guys.

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Post by Cosmic » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:01 pm

Bump

As it stands there is no "conversion" from an FAA IR to a JAA one. What exists is a facility where you can get a discount from the full 55 hour course requirement that the JARs specify as a minimum. I "converted" my FAA IR onto my CAA JAA CPL in this way. The CAA allows you to complete a minimum of 15hrs of training at a JAA approved FTO with any additional training required by the Head of Training.

All that is easier then it sounds. Turn up at any FTO in the UK and they will be happy to facilitate. The costs involved in the UK are absolutely mind blowing. One could easily, easily see fifteen to twenty thousand (15,000-20,000) Euro being spent between, simulator time, aircraft rental, instructor time, equipment, landing charges, approach and airway fees and extortionate CAA examiner and administration fees. Failure rates are high so budget more time for resits and additional training, and also for the amount of time hanging around with crap weather.

That is not even the hardest bit yet though. You will have to sit the JAA instrument rating exams, which sounds easy but what perhaps has not been mentioned is that from memory, these are all but two of the JAA ATPL exams. Now, you can distance learn these exams, but it is a massive undertaking for someone with a fulltime job. I was in fulltime groundschool for 6 months when I did mine. I looked at the Statistics on the CAA website a few years ago and for all these reasons, there were 14 PPL IR holders out of four odd thousand PPL holders in the UK.

In reality the price of admission in terms of money and also in time is just far too high for a PPL holder. Hence the volume of N registered general aviation aircraft in Europe. You take one written, which you could easily pass after a few days of hard study. You could do an intensive instrument rating in Florida in as little as 2-3 weeks. You could come back to Ireland, get someone to give you a few orientation flights in European airspace and procedures and away you go. You will need an FAA registered aircraft but that can all be arranged too.

This is probably the main reason for the proliferation of N, VP and M registered private aircraft. The JAA killed the PPL/IR!

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Post by Radar » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:36 pm

Cosmic,

A very comprehensive resume of the status quo. It wasn't (only) the JAA who killed the PPL/IR. The attitude persits within the industry that the IR is a rating really only suitable and appropriate to commercial operations. This became abundantly clear to me after making enquiries of an Irish FTO regarding 'conversion' of an FAA/IR onto my JAA licience.

This attitude is perhaps just as culpable as regulatory strangulation on the part ofthe JAA member states.

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Post by Bump » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:09 pm

Thanks for the info Cosmic - that statistic really says it all, 14 PPLIRs out of +4000 PPLs. The cost is absolutely astronomical! I think I'll be putting it on the long finger...

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Post by Cosmic » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:03 pm

It seems I got my statistics wrong. I would like to remind myself of what Disraeli said!:

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics


:oops:

They are here if you want to see them: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Licence%2 ... 202007.pdf

Still, out of 1900 PPL holders there are 22 IR holders. I would be willing to bet that at least some of those are prospective and imminent CPL holders who have elected to do their IR first.

Bump I spenty about $7-8000 USD on the FAA IR, then I went to Madrid to do a JAA IR using the 15 hr reduction that the UK CAA allow. They had a fixed price at the time of 5000 Euro all in. I reckoned at the time that I had obtained a half price IR.

The other thing that needs to be kept in mind is that, like buying an aircraft, the initial purchase price is the tip of the iceberg. Instrument flying is a very tangible skill and the "use it or loose it" rule applies. Apart from the initial outlay could you afford the upkeep of the rating?
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Post by buggyB » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:41 pm

It would be interesting to see how the numbers stack up when one takes IMC holders in account. A lot more PPLs would opt for the IMC over the full monty, cost being probably the winning argument here, with mostly CPL/ATPL candidates obtaining the IR.

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Post by Cosmic » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:54 pm

That table implies about 320 IMC holders.
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Post by driver1a » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:04 pm

The attitude persits within the industry that the IR is a rating really only suitable and appropriate to commercial operations. This became abundantly clear to me after making enquiries of an Irish FTO regarding 'conversion' of an FAA/IR onto my JAA licience.


Well at least he told you how it is. Some organisations would have taken your money and later shrugged their shoulders when you spun out of a cloud in the middle of a block of ice. :shock:

I'm afraid that 'attitude persists' because it really it is mostly only suitable and appropriate for commercial operations. As Cosmic pointed out getting an IR is bad enough but keeping it is quite another. The average PPL would never stay current enough to be safe when the day came when it was actually neccessary to use the IR in anger. On top of that you really need access to an aircraft equipped for IFR. The average club single simply is not equipped to fly in cloud for any length of time. Also some form of anti icing or de-icing equipment is an absolute must. You can pick up ice in cloud even in the summer. Particularly with CB's around. Which is another thing to avoid, except you can't unless you have weather radar.

Getting an FAA IR is not the answer either. The undershoot of airports and the hills of America are littered with the wreckage of aircraft flown by fully trained instrument pilots who were either lacking currency or in aircraft not up to the job.

I dare say that if you could somehow interview most of the PPL/IR holders mentioned. You would find that they all either owned or flew a high performance aircraft equipped and ready for IFR conditions.

One or two PPLs dream of having an instrument rating, thinking it would allow them to get more use out of their licences. It certainly would if you had one of these.

Image

But not one of these:

Image

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Post by buggyB » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:16 pm

I was too lazy to follow the link, but there you go. Why shell out for a full IR when as a PPL you will probably never use to its full potential. That's why the IMC exists (at present) so that private pilots can be safer when caught out by the WX and that when you need to go places on a marginal day you can just VFR on top where the sun usually shines and then do a let down at the other end. Probably over simplified a bit there.

I wonder if EASA will come up with something similar to allow the CAA to continue with this practice. It would only be a benifit to GA as a lot more pilots would opt to gain better instrument skills if the costs were more reasonable.

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Post by driver1a » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:28 pm

That's why the IMC exists (at present) so that private pilots can be safer when caught out by the WX and that when you need to go places on a marginal day you can just VFR on top where the sun usually shines and then do a let down at the other end.


I would suggest that very thing is what to led to one accident that I'm aware of. On a marginal day, your best bet is to stay at home. Descending through cloud is not for the faint hearted. I think anyway that the intention of the IMC rating is that you can fly above cloud but can only let down if conditions are clear. I imagine that procedure is not neccessarily followed to the letter sometimes.

Beside the IMC is UK only and will stay that way.

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Post by buggyB » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:06 pm

driver1a wrote:I would suggest that very thing is what to led to one accident that I'm aware of. On a marginal day, your best bet is to stay at home. Descending through cloud is not for the faint hearted. I think anyway that the intention of the IMC rating is that you can fly above cloud but can only let down if conditions are clear. I imagine that procedure is not neccessarily followed to the letter sometimes.

Beside the IMC is UK only and will stay that way.

I am sure that there are many more incidents ending in tragedy with pilots getting caught out and attemting to climb out of trouble (or let down afterwards) without any real instrument training. While it is true that the IMC is sometimes misused by the holder and currency is an issue there are many cases where it can be safely used in day to day flying eg. conditions at departure airport marginal but destination CAVOK. For the few occaisions where the pilot would use this privilege the full IR is prohibitive and overly costly to gain and maintain. I am also of the opinion that any extra skills the pilot can have the better off he/she is (always assuming that the aircraft is properly equiped of course). But with the costs and problems involved I could just save my money and, as you suggest, stick to good flying days.

The IMC is uk only at the minute but EASA will eventually either have to create somthing similar to accomodate the CAA or abolish it altogether, which I can't see happening.

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Post by Radar » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:43 am

Well at least he told you how it is. Some organisations would have taken your money and later shrugged their shoulders when you spun out of a cloud in the middle of a block of ice.


driver1a,

That's a breath-taking piece of predjudice, my friend.
'... the way it is.' Gimme a break ! :lol: Following that line of thinking 'the block of ice' is what awaits any PPL with the temerity to obtain an IR. This presupposes an inability to recognise the limitations involved in undertaking a particular flight, be they personal, technical, meterological etc. This is true regardless of whether the proposed flight is IFR or VFR. No?

Nice photos by the way. The underlying assumption that IR flying is the preserve of TBM class aircraft is wide of the mark and not supported by lies, damned lies or even statistics.

Check this out www.pplir.com It might broaden a horizon or two.

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