Lads there's no need to take it personally.Flyer1 I'm sure you have used the quote function on occasion!
Cork ATC are more often than not a most accommodating bunch and for any local flight, be it circuits, looking at cows or a bit of sightseeing, they will accept your flight with the initial ground contact after start up detailing POB,endurance and intentions being sufficient.
However for any flight leaving their area of radar coverage/responsibility you must file a plan. It just so happens that their area of coverage/responsibility extends roughly 25nm. It's a local practice and I must point out a GA friendly practice by Cork ATC.
This was merely a case of not understanding the rules properly and any days flying in which you don't learn something new is a wasted days flying. As for being burned on freq..we've all been there once or twice! Just be careful of the mutual reinforcement guys!
Incidentally, how was the remainder of your flight?? Erinagh worth the trip?
Flight Plan Rules
Moderator: mark
To my knowledge a flight plan can be file on paper or verbally. For example when you call ground at say Cork and give them details such as call sign, number of persons on board, endurance and route you are in effect filing a flight plan. It is a flight plan filed by RT rather than on paper. That is why local flights have been able to depart EICK in the past. Saying that you never had to file a flight plan in the past is incorrect as by supplying the above details to the controller you have filed a plan and were therefore complying with the requirement to file in class C airspace.
What seems to have changed is that ATC in Cork now are insisting that a paper flight plan be filed with AIS in Shannon. This is not a change in the need to file a flight plan but is a change in the method of filing. I don't know if ATC have the authority to insist that you file in a particular manner (maybe they do, others may know). It does seem a bit silly however as AIS in Shannon will load the plan into the system for the purpose of letting ATC in Cork know the flight plan details when they would know the details a lot quicker if they allowed the plan to be filed by RT. I can understand paper plans being required if the flight was going to go into other Class C airspace. It appears that ATC in Cork changed the procedure for the filing method without advising very many people and without explaining the thinking behind it so it is not surprising that people would be confused when the RT filing system has been in use for at least the last 10 years to my knowledge.
Tolka
What seems to have changed is that ATC in Cork now are insisting that a paper flight plan be filed with AIS in Shannon. This is not a change in the need to file a flight plan but is a change in the method of filing. I don't know if ATC have the authority to insist that you file in a particular manner (maybe they do, others may know). It does seem a bit silly however as AIS in Shannon will load the plan into the system for the purpose of letting ATC in Cork know the flight plan details when they would know the details a lot quicker if they allowed the plan to be filed by RT. I can understand paper plans being required if the flight was going to go into other Class C airspace. It appears that ATC in Cork changed the procedure for the filing method without advising very many people and without explaining the thinking behind it so it is not surprising that people would be confused when the RT filing system has been in use for at least the last 10 years to my knowledge.
Tolka
As a controller at one of the state airports I think I should clarify a few things.
Firstly, cork asking you for your fuel endurance. POB and route is for the benefit of the rescue services. It has nothing to do with a flight plan and is not considered as such. The fact that Cork have been letting you depart without a flight plan does not mean that they wish you to get into this habit and you will find if you continue this practice every now and then a controller with eat you up on frequency for not having one.
Secondly, anyone who feels that sending in a flight plan for short trips is not necessary and ATC will get annoyed with you for doing so could not be more incorrect. Our system is well capable of handling these flight plans and any we do not need can be deleted.
Thirdly, besides the legality of flying in class C without a flight plan, as a controller I consider it a simple courtesy for the pilot to file one before departure whether for a short hop or travel outside the zone. It helps me provide a better service to both you and those I'm trying to separate you from.
I am not attacking your skills as pilots. You all passed your flight test and are proven competent.
The Rules of the Air are there for a reason, your safety and the safety of others.
In future file a Flight Plan.
Firstly, cork asking you for your fuel endurance. POB and route is for the benefit of the rescue services. It has nothing to do with a flight plan and is not considered as such. The fact that Cork have been letting you depart without a flight plan does not mean that they wish you to get into this habit and you will find if you continue this practice every now and then a controller with eat you up on frequency for not having one.
Secondly, anyone who feels that sending in a flight plan for short trips is not necessary and ATC will get annoyed with you for doing so could not be more incorrect. Our system is well capable of handling these flight plans and any we do not need can be deleted.
Thirdly, besides the legality of flying in class C without a flight plan, as a controller I consider it a simple courtesy for the pilot to file one before departure whether for a short hop or travel outside the zone. It helps me provide a better service to both you and those I'm trying to separate you from.
I am not attacking your skills as pilots. You all passed your flight test and are proven competent.
The Rules of the Air are there for a reason, your safety and the safety of others.
In future file a Flight Plan.
Yahweh thanks for the clarification.
Can I ask you about filing a flight plan on the radio (RT). I always believed it was allowed and remember seeing references to it during my PPL studies. Would it not be more efficient to file flight plans for local flights in this manner as I understand that the one hour filing requirement is to allow sufficient time for AIS in Shannon to get the plan into the system. Its just that it seems very bureaucratic to have to wait an hour after filing a plan before you can go on a short hop around the local area. It means that you can't make a quick decision to go for a short local flight if say the weather improves.
Tolka
Can I ask you about filing a flight plan on the radio (RT). I always believed it was allowed and remember seeing references to it during my PPL studies. Would it not be more efficient to file flight plans for local flights in this manner as I understand that the one hour filing requirement is to allow sufficient time for AIS in Shannon to get the plan into the system. Its just that it seems very bureaucratic to have to wait an hour after filing a plan before you can go on a short hop around the local area. It means that you can't make a quick decision to go for a short local flight if say the weather improves.
Tolka
If you are really stuck, most controllers will accept a flight plan filed over the R/T. I would'nt make a habit of it however as it uses up valuable frequency time.
Most controllers take a common sense approach to it as regards the amount of time in advance to file. I'm a pilot myself so I understand that the weather in Ireland changes on a Dime and you might not be able to give the full amount of notice. The key requirement is to give as much notice as you can to allow us to plan ahead, i.e. not while your taxiing for departure.
Flying by its nature can at times be bureaucratic but those rules and regulations are there for good reason.
Most controllers take a common sense approach to it as regards the amount of time in advance to file. I'm a pilot myself so I understand that the weather in Ireland changes on a Dime and you might not be able to give the full amount of notice. The key requirement is to give as much notice as you can to allow us to plan ahead, i.e. not while your taxiing for departure.
Flying by its nature can at times be bureaucratic but those rules and regulations are there for good reason.
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alphaLaura
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Just one more nitpicky thing I have to ask: Yahweh, you said that the reason Cork asks you for fuel endurance, POB, requested route etc is for SAR purposes. I understand this but, the reply from ATC is always "EI-[][][], VFR flight plan is accepted, taxi hold short..." etc. So, technically you have just filed an RT flight plan?
Btw, the trip to Erinagh was excellent! Totally worth it!
Btw, the trip to Erinagh was excellent! Totally worth it!
From memory, & too lazy to check, I thought to file an RT Flight Plan, you had o do so not less than 15NM (or was it 15mins) from the boundary, when in Class G.
The problem here appears to the return journey (Cork would appear to have filed an RT, I did the same in sligo recently by a quick buzz to the ATC from the operations room, which they closed at the boundary).
So if you called at the boundary, you were less than 15NM from same, and probably not entitled (but used to) entering the zone.
Willo
The problem here appears to the return journey (Cork would appear to have filed an RT, I did the same in sligo recently by a quick buzz to the ATC from the operations room, which they closed at the boundary).
So if you called at the boundary, you were less than 15NM from same, and probably not entitled (but used to) entering the zone.
Willo
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alphaLaura
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AlphaLaura,
When Cork tell you that your VFR Flightplan is accepted, it means that a plan has just been created and activated by the controller in the tower and he will accept your having not filed one yourself. When flight plans are filed they go into what's known as a preactive state on our system. Based on your offblocks time, in the case of VFR's the time you expect to get going at, the plan will go into an active state and show up on our departure list. Usually this is automatic but in the case you have just given, cork have to input a flight plan for you and then manually activate it. As I have said before this is not proper procedure but 9 times out of 10 we do it out of necessity as we need to have a correlated signal on our radar. Again we would prefer if you file these plans yourself as it cuts down on our workload and I'm sure you can appreciate that during busy periods we don't have time to input and activate plans willy nilly.
As regards POB and Fuel Endurance aswell as routing details, the reason we need those is that in the event that god forbid you crash we have enough info to inform the rescue services of the postion you went down aswell as how many people to pick up. Again this does not constitute a flight plan filed as we are perfectly within our rights to hold you on the ground and wait to receive one. But you will find the majority of ATC is fairly GA friendly and won't go to that extreme.... unless we're having a really bad day
When Cork tell you that your VFR Flightplan is accepted, it means that a plan has just been created and activated by the controller in the tower and he will accept your having not filed one yourself. When flight plans are filed they go into what's known as a preactive state on our system. Based on your offblocks time, in the case of VFR's the time you expect to get going at, the plan will go into an active state and show up on our departure list. Usually this is automatic but in the case you have just given, cork have to input a flight plan for you and then manually activate it. As I have said before this is not proper procedure but 9 times out of 10 we do it out of necessity as we need to have a correlated signal on our radar. Again we would prefer if you file these plans yourself as it cuts down on our workload and I'm sure you can appreciate that during busy periods we don't have time to input and activate plans willy nilly.
As regards POB and Fuel Endurance aswell as routing details, the reason we need those is that in the event that god forbid you crash we have enough info to inform the rescue services of the postion you went down aswell as how many people to pick up. Again this does not constitute a flight plan filed as we are perfectly within our rights to hold you on the ground and wait to receive one. But you will find the majority of ATC is fairly GA friendly and won't go to that extreme.... unless we're having a really bad day
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Dogbiscuit
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Just had a look at the AIP Ireland.
Page ENR1.10-2 says about (VFR) air filed flight plans:
ATSU will accept flight plans from aircraft in the air. This procedure (AFIL) should only be used when no other means of submission is practicable.
From my experience I would say the following applies:
Full flight plan from the main three international airports, the smaller regionals appear to have a local procedure whereby they can accept local flight plans with only the essential information requested.
If approaching a regional zone without a flight plan call them a decent distance from their boundary, around 10 minutes perhaps to air file. But be warned appraching the likes of Galway on a busy day without a plan may lead to you having to wait to enter.
Page ENR1.10-2 says about (VFR) air filed flight plans:
ATSU will accept flight plans from aircraft in the air. This procedure (AFIL) should only be used when no other means of submission is practicable.
From my experience I would say the following applies:
Full flight plan from the main three international airports, the smaller regionals appear to have a local procedure whereby they can accept local flight plans with only the essential information requested.
If approaching a regional zone without a flight plan call them a decent distance from their boundary, around 10 minutes perhaps to air file. But be warned appraching the likes of Galway on a busy day without a plan may lead to you having to wait to enter.
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michael747
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I can see it written there once alright 
I cant actually, I definatly need to update my AIP
I cant actually, I definatly need to update my AIP
Last edited by michael747 on Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards,
M747
M747
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Maverick
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hi all,
I've been following this topic with interest and have held off commenting until now. In terms of the particular case RE: VFR to Erinagh I can fully appreciate both sides of the coin from ATC's point of view(In theory you should file a flight plan before hand where possible) and the flight crews point of view(frequent flyers know that regionals(and in this case an international) give some leeway RE:flight plans just to get you out of the zone where GA flights are common) And unfortunately in this case the PiC got the sh***y end of the stick from ATC who evidently may have been frustrated with the lack of adherence to the "official procedures" even though this flight was without doubt one of many im sure that day who were in the same boat having not sent a flight plan to shannon(as was the norm in the local area whether it was right or wrong to do so,monkey see monkey do).
One other comment that I'l make is that I think it would be good for all PPL holders to get some sort of a trip to the ATC facilities(as part of training perhaps) to see what their side of flying looks like and so we as pilots can better appreciate what makes their life easier and provide use with a better service. I personally would like to see what the voice on the other end of the radio has in front of them and get a better appreciation for their job from their perspective. I know there used to be some good contacts in ATC years ago and people did get shown around but I believe since then the line of contact has diminshed through no fault of anyone involved or thats my understanding which ofcourse I stand to be corrected on. Anyway my point being that an improved relationship between ATC and GA pilots can only be good and equally any ATC staff who havent experienced our side of the flying should also take the oppourtunity to see what makes our lives easier and safer and see the kinds of challenges we face on the flight deck(RT is one of many jobs to be juggled when flying).
Anyway thats my take on things.
Regards
Mav
I've been following this topic with interest and have held off commenting until now. In terms of the particular case RE: VFR to Erinagh I can fully appreciate both sides of the coin from ATC's point of view(In theory you should file a flight plan before hand where possible) and the flight crews point of view(frequent flyers know that regionals(and in this case an international) give some leeway RE:flight plans just to get you out of the zone where GA flights are common) And unfortunately in this case the PiC got the sh***y end of the stick from ATC who evidently may have been frustrated with the lack of adherence to the "official procedures" even though this flight was without doubt one of many im sure that day who were in the same boat having not sent a flight plan to shannon(as was the norm in the local area whether it was right or wrong to do so,monkey see monkey do).
One other comment that I'l make is that I think it would be good for all PPL holders to get some sort of a trip to the ATC facilities(as part of training perhaps) to see what their side of flying looks like and so we as pilots can better appreciate what makes their life easier and provide use with a better service. I personally would like to see what the voice on the other end of the radio has in front of them and get a better appreciation for their job from their perspective. I know there used to be some good contacts in ATC years ago and people did get shown around but I believe since then the line of contact has diminshed through no fault of anyone involved or thats my understanding which ofcourse I stand to be corrected on. Anyway my point being that an improved relationship between ATC and GA pilots can only be good and equally any ATC staff who havent experienced our side of the flying should also take the oppourtunity to see what makes our lives easier and safer and see the kinds of challenges we face on the flight deck(RT is one of many jobs to be juggled when flying).
Anyway thats my take on things.
Regards
Mav