Flight Plan Rules

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Flyer1
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Post by Flyer1 »

It was NOT EIWF, the lads in the tower there are among the best and most professional in the game.

This place is around 56NM on a 250 from EIWF..

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Post by alphaLaura »

I shouldn't have used EIWF as an example! Just to RE-CLARIFY: I was not talking about EIWF! Waterford ATC are excellent and I've never had this sort of experience with them.

(Nope, not EIKN either.)

If I'm flying from Class C -> Class C I always file a flight plan diligently and well before my estimated start up time. Airoshane, Flyer1 and I all knew, in advance of this trip, that we would not need a flight plan.

There is one thing that I don't understand in all of this. How did ATC ever let you get airborne? Presumably they needed to know what your intension's were before departure, so as to know which direction to send you. At this point it should have become clear that your flight wouldn't be eligible for their local procedure, and that you'd need a flight plan. So why did they let you depart without one?


ATC had noted down our requested route before they cleared us onto the runway for take-off, but didn't ask us if we had a flight plan until we were airborne.

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Post by GoGoGadgetGoAround »

I'm guessing this is Cork.....
Engine Failure: A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air

Yahweh
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Post by Yahweh »

So to clarify, you got airborne out of Cork to an airfield in Class G.

Just out of curiosity, why did you believe that you would'nt need a flight plan to get airborne out of cork airport? Have CK let you go before without a plan?

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Post by airoshane »

The guessing is killing me...

We flew from Cork to Erinagh! As soon as we left the Cork CTA we were in class G all the way to Erinagh. The distance is around 60 miles.

In theory we don't need a flight plan. I flew from Cork to Bantry a few times over the summer without a flightplan.

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Post by N714GZ »

Actually in theory you do need a flight plan for all flights entering or departing from Class C. It more often than not happens however that you wont be asked for one at a a field with GA friendly controllers such as at EICK. I would suggest that for this one flight that this was pointed out you have probably had a hundred where you were accommodated by them.

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Post by Bigwillie »

Airoshane, Flyer1 and I all knew, in advance of this trip, that we would not need a flight plan.


In theory we don't need a flight plan.


Two rather mis-informed statements deduced from the combined opinions of a number of qualified pilots!

What regulation/rule lead you to (a) form the theory and (b) all know that you did not need a flight plan?

Excerpt from S.I. 72, The Rules of the Air Order states that a flight plan must be submitted prior to operating....

1. Any flight or portion thereof to be provided with an Air Traffic Control Service.

(Is it not true that EICK provide you with an Air Traffic Control Service whilst you are operating within their Control Zone? Just because you intended leaving the Control Zone at some point does not mean that you are not subject to an Air Traffic Control Service while operating within this area)

2. Any flight within or into designated areas...

(The EICK CTR is a designated area in the form of Class C airspace)

It follows from this that your flight satisfied 2 of the criteria that required you to file a flight plan (for the portion of the flight that took place in the Control Zone as a minimum)

Now, before people start jumping down my throat and saying they have operated out of EIWF for example without having filed a flight plan, then first consider these points:

1. Was the CTR active at the time? If not, then you were not in receipt of an Air Traffic Control Service, but a Flight Information Service. There is a difference.

2. If the CTR was not active, then that portion of airpsace that is normally classified as being Class C is 'downgraded' to uncontrolled Class G airspace for the period of inactivity. Therefore under this circumstance, no flight plan is required to come or go.

Again, some people may also say that they have operated from EICK before without having filed an 'official' flight plan. But bear in mind that if you had made a telephone call to EICK ATC prior to your departure advising them of your details/intentions, then they more than likely, perhaps unbeknown to you, filed a flight plan on your behalf as a result.

I do not know what local arrangements may/may not be in place now or in the past between ATC and local flying schools in EICK regarding this issue, but the rules as I have quoted are the rules.

If you do not operate in accordance with the Rules of the Air as published then you do not have any grounds to complain about being inconvenienced by ATC being 'difficult' with you.

Moral of the story....file a flight plan in future if you want to be guaranteed of a hassle free departure or arrival to an Airport located within controlled airspace.

Safe skies and happy flying to you all.

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Post by tally1 »

Wow bigwillie (never thought id actually write that on this type of website :shock: !)

What a post!

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Post by alphaLaura »

I think all three of us are aware of:

1. Any flight or portion thereof to be provided with an Air Traffic Control Service.


2. Any flight within or into designated areas...


Regarding flying from EIWF to a Class G airfield: No, on all occassions that I have flown from Waterford to Kilkenny (as an example) the CTR was active. When I made my initial calls to Waterford tower for those trips, I would request a VFR detail to Kilkenny (with a full stop for x minutes) and ask to open a 5 minute flight plan to the zone boundary.

Airoshane repeated the same procedure for EICK.

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Post by Bigwillie »

I think all three of us are aware of:

Quote:
1. Any flight or portion thereof to be provided with an Air Traffic Control Service.


Quote:
2. Any flight within or into designated areas...


Well in that case AL, you have just re-inforced the justification as to why you should have filed a flight plan prior to departure.

Regarding your previous procedures at EIWF, you were indeed lucky that ATC were so accommodating in facilitating you with this short notice method of filing a plan...provided of course I have made the correct assumption that your call was made within minutes of your intended departure time.

This does not mean that this is 'the norm' at every airport and as such, you and your colleagues should not expect that same level of facilitation at every airport located within controlled airspace that you visit.

The onus is on you firstly to know the rules of the air (which you have stated you did) and secondly to follow these rules in the prescribed manner (which you did not), and not for ATC to have to go out of their way to facilitate those who elect not to, particularly if the ATC unit concerned are experiencing a period of high workload.

And like I previously stated...the way for you and your colleagues to ensure the most hassle free, expeditious and lawful means of departure from an Airport located within controlled airspace is to file a flight plan.

This issue is not subject to an extended and protracted debate on this forum. The rules are the rules.

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Post by airoshane »

On initial call up in Cork ATC want to hear fuel endurance, persons on board... On paper this could be considered as a flight plan.

If you always need a flight plan in class c airspace then ATC in Cork would recieve about 40 flight plans per day for training aircraft to operate in the south west.

How is the circuit covered in this?

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Post by alphaLaura »

Hey, I wasn't PIC on this flight! (Sorry Shane)

My point is: When we made the first call to the ground frequency and said our intentions, there was no hassle. Everything was as normal (ie - no flight plan required for the trip - just like the 3 of us have found again and again when flying from Cork & Waterford). The controller who was on ground frequency was also on tower frequency. He cleared us from the hold, to line up and then take-off. We were over the city by time he asked us if we had a flight plan.
Usually they have no problem in letting us fly on a local flight plan to the zone boundary - a plan which is normally filed when contacting the ground frequency initially. We filed a plan home as soon as we got to Erinagh.
I'm not trying to dispute the rules! What confused me was this new "25nm rule" because I hadn't heard it before and it hasn't been notamed.

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Post by Flyer1 »

Lads,

We can all go copy and paste this that and the other from source x on some website or copy it out of a book, but in the real world that doesn't always stand.

Blah blah, you do need a flight plan for this, or for that. I've flown into a good 90% of the Class C airports in Ireland either in the left seat or as an observer in the right seat. The reality is that most class C places are happy just to take your details and let you on your way.

This 25nm thing was the first i've ever heard of, and certainly a new one to anybody else.

So maybe the ATC facility told someone, but like EVERYTHING in aviation there is a massive breakdown in communications. So look, airoshane and alphaLaura are both qualified pilots, they know the rules, they know what you can and can't do, so don't question their ability. They got their licences for a reason.

99% of ATC guys and gals are the most helpful in the world and will always facilitate you when possible, and hey, some will even flex the rules.

As AL previously mentions, this little " 25nm rule " was NOT notamed or had it ever been before mentioned to the PiC at the time. Breakdown in communications, typical old Ireland.

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Post by Flyer1 »

Ohhh and bigwillie,

If you do file a flightplan EVERY time you intend to fly at your Class C airfield, ATC are soon going to get rather annoyed at a flight plan coming through because Joe Bloggs wants to fly a circuit or go for a look at the cows.

Now I dont want any smart replies or copying and pasting, leave it at that.

And leave the " quote " button alone too, you seem to be a great man for it.

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Post by tally1 »

Easy does it now - no point in burning people here as well as on frequency .

A few things do strike me tho and i speak from experience of being in a similiar situation many moons ago so for what its worth......

We all know the rules is the rules is the rules..and they do say that a flight plan is required for class C. The exact requirements are posted above - they do state that you need it for any portion of flight thats in class C i.e an airport with a control zone so in pure black and white terms the flight concerned and the one we are referring to SHOULD have filed. The rule is there and ATC can ask why you havent filed. They do have a view that if you couldn't be arsed to file then they cant be arsed to let you in or take your plan on freq. or bend over backwards for you.

Quote:(forgive me flyer1)" If you do file a flightplan EVERY time you intend to fly at your Class C airfield, ATC are soon going to get rather annoyed at a flight plan coming through because Joe Bloggs wants to fly a circuit or go for a look at the cows"

I have referred to this already and having spoken to some of the ATC lads and asked them this and their view generally is this: if you are doing circuits or taken a look at your cows 20nm away then for easiness sake on their part they dont look for a flightplan from you ( although it is required). This suits you as pic 'cos you dont have to bother filing a full plan and Atc dont have to bother going looking for your plan,activating it,and closing it when as you said all you are doing is circuits. This usually comes about as a 'local practice' its never written down anywhere.

I dont think Atc will ever become annoyed at having any number of flight plans. They might get REALLY ANNOYED if every training/circuit flight wants to file their plan on freq which is a sure fire way to piss off a controller.

Flyer1 said that having flown into 90% of class C airports without a flightplan then lucky you mate but im afraid you cant say that as a justification for not follwing the rules and then getting brought up on it! I totally accept that you were operating on a best practise basis and you thought that you were doing nothing different than what you have done dozens of times before therefore it was ok and you got a nasty experience on freq as a result

As for a breakdown in communication ..there undoubtably was , hence this mix up and 3 perfectly good pilots get a bol**ocking on freq and have their day ruined.Having double checked this including checking it with ATC i can 100% say that there is no 25 or 35nm rule regards filing or not filing a plan-its a non existent rule that does NOT exist..BUT...this 'local' practice thing pops up.
To put it simply Cork dont always look for flightplans (even tho mandatory) on training flights/circuits/jollies AS LONG AS the flight doesnt leave their area-especially when they recognize the callsign as being fom the local club or school. They know from experience that this callsign is gonna spend its time doing circuits or heading a short distance away to look at a mates house.
However if this flight now wants to go to EIER or EIWF or some field and come back they DO expect to file a plan with AIS a least an hour before departure. The breakdown in comms comes from the fact that you were not made aware of this 'local' procedure thats not written down anywhere . From a previous post( i think alpha laura) ATC mentioned that they had told your company/school/club about this issue numerous times but the school never told you. Now its perfectly understandable on a human and human performance basis that considering how things operated before and ATC in 90% of the time didnt worry about whether you had a plan or not means that last sunday you thought nothing about operating your flight as you did. But you were the one 'straw' that broke the camels back and its unfortunate that you got a lashing on freq.

To sum up: if in doubt file a full plan OR ring ATC they will very quickly let you know what they want you to do but if in any doubt file..i dont think ATC will burn you on FReq for filing but they might do it again if you havent filed.

And finally i make these comments with no ill intention what so ever and hope the 3 perfectly good pilots have recovered and have no lasting scars from either ATC or this thread==after all burns can be serious

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