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Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:08 pm
by Pilot

I can't answer the part about receiving training in Ireland to add a night rating to your UK CAA JAR PPL. I simply don't know the CAA's position on that.

The part about flying in the UK at night on a CAA licence will depend on if your aircraft is an Irish registered aircraft or a UK one. If it's UK, then there is no problem....the only difference between you and everyone eles in the UK, is that you live in Ireland. But your aircraft, licence and position would be the same as anyone else in UK airspace.

If your aircraft is EI registered, then the answer is no. The reason for this is this.

IAA Rules of the Air Order 2004. The relevant section is 38( 8 )(iii)
Flights by night outside a control zone shall be operated as IFR flights in accordance with Part IV of the Rules in this Order unless otherwise prescribed or authorised by the Authority.

So you must be able to fly under IFR. No problem for most of us, as our JAA PPL doesn't prohibit us from flying under simply prohibits us from flying in weather conditions which require us to fly IFR. So it's perfectly legal for us to fly under IFR so long as we stay in VFR type weather, though there is generally no point in doing so. The UK has a similar rule, so all night flight in the UK (outside control zones) is actually under IFR. Those without IMC's or instrument ratings in the UK can quite happily fly IFR at night, so long as they stay in VFR type weather.

So far so just happily fly at night under IFR and stay in good weather. And that's fine if you're in a UK registered aircraft. However, here's the catch for those in an EI registered aircraft.

IAA Personal Licensing Order 2000. The relevant section is S19 (1)

A person shall not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft or as co-pilot of a multi-pilot aeroplane or helicopter registered in the State under instrument flight rules unless such person holds a valid instrument rating -
(a) issued or validated by the Authority and endorsed in or deemed by the
Authority to be included in the licence held by such person or in the
validation of such licence, as the case may be, and
(b) appropriate to the category, class or type of aircraft flown.

So if you want to fly an EI registered aircraft under IFR, you must have an IR rating no matter what, no matter which country you are in.

And before anyone gets the clever idea of flying at night in the Republic in a G registered aircraft, there is a similar paragraph banning IFR flight without an IR in an aircraft registered in another country, while within the state.

So while not legal, I'm not too sure just how concerned the IAA would be about someone flying an EI reg aircraft at night in the UK. Perhaps someone putting a good case to them would be able to get an exemption?


Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:29 pm
by Michael Jackson
It is 3hrs PUT for the night rating! 2hrs is PIC
And you CANNOT fly single IFR on EI-reg aircraft night in Ireland outside the zone boundrys.
Only aircraft allowed to do that are Other/ICAO reg aircraft,military and emergency use aircraft.

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:45 pm
by Pilot
Michael Jackson wrote:Pilot,
It is 3hrs PUT for the night rating! 2hrs is PIC

Yes. That's five hours, not the three that you indicated in your first post.

Michael Jackson wrote:And you CANNOT fly single IFR on EI-reg aircraft night in Ireland outside the zone boundrys. Only aircraft allowed to do that are Other/ICAO reg aircraft,military and emergency use aircraft.

I've no idea where you are coming up with that from. Can you provide a leglisative reference for it?


Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:03 pm
by Maverick
In terms of the Legislation on a Night Rating minus any of the IR stuff it states as follows,from "Irish Aviation Authority (Personnel Licensing) Order, S.I. 333 of 2000,Page 64,Paragraph 3(b),If the privileges of the licence are to be exercised at night, the applicant
shall have completed an additional 5 hours of flight time at night in an
aeroplane, including 3 hours of dual instruction with navigational
instruction and 5 solo take-offs, circuits and full-stop landings."........I do believe your correct Pilot as I know for a fact of SEIR flights that have been conducted at Night.

Michael Jackson,
You seem to be back tracking a bit on the total hours needed for one thing and I dont know where your getting your info on the IR stuff but i strongly have doubts about it.What difference does it make anyway if your flying IFR in Class C airspace, whether your in a single or a twin doesnt matter because your flying IFR and have the appropriate night rating.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:51 am
by shrtfld
I got night rating in Cork in early eighties. When I returned to flying after long break, IAA gave night rating to me. Most of my night flying over past few years has been in the USA. I usually arrange to do a 20/30 minute cross country, do circuits at destination and return to whereever I had departed from. Great fun and experience. Orlano for example at night is especially spectacular.

I have also done a couple of night details at Shannon having taken off from EICN just five minutes before end of VFR having filed an SVFR plan and discussed details with the tower before filing flight plan. I then parked up in EINN overnight when finished and collected aircraft early the following morning.

I have thought about going to Knock, or Sligo or Galway on an overnight to do some flying in their Zones. Do these airports allow SVFR night ops for single engine aircraft?

PS: The risks of engine failure at night are no worse than in day time. Also the engine does not know it is night.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:43 pm
shrtfld, what aircraft were you flying? Are Rallyes certified to fly at night? If they have IFR commercial flights inbound they are normally open especially now with VFR ending soon after 5-ish you would have more time to do some night flying.

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:14 pm
by Mike C
G-Joyt, You can do a night rating here in Ireland and get it placed onto your Caa licence.

On application you will need Form SRG/1126 in addition to the requirements stated on the form you will also need to provide a copy of the RTF and a copy of your instructors details.

The process will take 7 to 10 working days by post or if you travel over to Gatwick it will take a few hours if you hand everything in before 12.

Hope this helps

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:15 am
Thank you very much Mike! Appreciated! :P