Galways Fee's

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inverted
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Galways Fee's

Post by inverted »

People.
In todays irish independent on page 16 theres a small article about one of Celtic heil's machines being grounded for not paying landing/navigation charges. This is the first time that Galways outlandish carry-on has been highlighted in the print media. O.k its one thing to be impounded for non-payment of landing fee's. We all have to pay them but the real gripe i have with galway is as follows:
What does Galway Airport offer VFR and or IFR pilots that other airports ( Waterford, Sligo, Donegal etc) dont, that allow them to impose this so-called "navigation charge" ?
Since when have Galway a radar service that allows them to provide spatial seperation for aircraft in there control zone?
They don't !
So what exactly are they charging us for?
Perhaps its for relaying information from shannon radar as to an aircrafts location.
Its an absolute scandal that this organisation has the audacity to charge us for a service that they cant even justify !!
Furthermore how legal are these farsical "navigation fees"
I challange anyone in Galway airport to answer the above questions.
But I doubt anyone will emerge from behind the corporate Veil to try and justify these horrendous charges.
T.C

shrtfld
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Galway's fees

Post by shrtfld »

As a matter of interest what do Galway charge for GA movements and how is it broken down? I need to go there in the next couple of weeks. I don't want any shocks.

Speaking of charges I recently flew my wife to Cork Airport - she was going to visit her sister. Aer Rianta charged me in excess of seven euros by way of a passenger load fee ( in addition to the landing charge) . I had a friend travelling with me too and they wanted two fees for the friend - arrival and departing passenger. I am glad to say common sense prevailed and the friend was designated a "transit" passenger and thus exempt from the load fees. Has any one else had this type of experience at Aer Rianta airports. I can understand PAX load fees for commercial operations - but GA such as I have described strikes me as a little over the top.

Perhaps Mark might facilitate the creation of a chart highlighting such charges as described by "Inverted" and me.
Shrtfld

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Post by pensive »

Not at Aer Rianta fields but at East Midlands, UK.
I hopped off a scheduled flight to then be picked up by heli. The poor chaps picking me up had to pay an arrival charge of ?42 and a departure charge of ?47. Thats ?90 which is about EUR135 for a 2 minute rotors running pickup! :shock:
You think Aer Rianta are bad!

RV BLUE
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Post by RV BLUE »

This sort of crap is going to florish my friends. One does'nt have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that if there is no substantial opposition to this kind of "highway robbery" it will continue unabated. Being "Irish" myself, I can comfortably say that the "Irish" are no good at organizing groups to protect thier interests, (AOPA) so carry on with your lives, and let the "powers that be" whip your asses.....who can blame them. Eventually you'll all be landing on grass fields...wont be long till Aer Rianta gets a smell of the profits to be made at Weston(private or otherwise) when the Lear's and Falcons appear....Someone tell me who's going to stop them charging fee's.....???? A classic example of "opposition" is AOPA in the United States, the best value my money can buy. Its a pleasure to subscribe to. It prevents the powers that be from over regulating airspace, fees, etc. Unless you do something about it, you can kiss your flying privalages good bye, eventually.

Lionel Hutz
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Post by Lionel Hutz »

Saw a piece in the Sunday Independent about Celtic Helicopters bit of trouble in Galway.

The Airport Manager went to the Control tower himself to tell the ATCO not to clear the heli in question for take off.

This raises serious safety questions, in this case safety was not compromised because no flying took place, however if the situation was a little different say an aircraft diverting to Galway due to unexpected Weather and running low on fuel being denied permission to land because the airport manager told the ATCO to do so because he felt that he would not get his Navigation fee!

Airport Management are not Air traffic controllers and should have no influence over their actions, ATCO'S primary reason for being there is SAFETY not profit.

The article went on to say that Celtic Helicopters were only in dispute with Galway over the Navigation fee's not the landing and handling fee's.

The issue is to go before the high court.

The results of such an action are of the utmost importance to US.

It can go two ways.

1. The Judge rules in Celtic's Favour.

This means that the charges are illegal (we all suspect as much anyway.)

This will be the end of the matter, and any further attempt to impose such or similar charges will be easily dismissed by reference to this judgement.

2. The Judge rules in Galway's Favour.

A very scary outcome, because all the other regional airports would then be entitled to charge the same fee's

lets hope Celtic win!

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Post by DownButNot Out »

Celtic took the issue to the High Court during the galway races. The immediate problem of impounding the aircraft was sorted outside the court. The navigation charges issue is going to arbritation in October.

i have one question - who's airspace is it anyway :?:

Lionel Hutz
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Post by Lionel Hutz »

Arbitration is a bad thing

A settlement will likley be reached, with some face saving payment made.

NO payment at all should be made.

Jimbo
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Post by Jimbo »

Can anyone confirm that they have payed these so called "Nav Charges"??

If any one has any helpful comments please contact Celtic Helicopters Ltd

Terry Murphy
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Post by Terry Murphy »

Quote:
The Airport Manager went to the Control tower himself to tell the ATCO not to clear the heli in question for take off.

Providing this was not in any way relating to safety of flight or the safe operation of the airport in question...
This is a criminal act! - full stop.

WE (as citizens of the sovereign territory of Ireland) OWN the airspace surrounding EICM with the express understanding that stewardship of that airspace is provided by the Irish Aviation Authority in accordance with ALL international agreements and charter signatures made on OUR behalf.

The ATCO is an agent of the IAA which in itself is empowered by US by means of legislative acts and instruments to manage the airspace of the territory.

When will the penny drop???!!!
This is nothing more than a rouge trader (of airspace) attempting to generate invoices from the mistaken idea that there is a ?long acre? of open sky above Galway ripe for grazing Euro?s and cents.

Eurocontrol should be sent anything that might be euphemistically called an ?invoice? or any other paperwork that emanates from this caravan at Galway and let them shine a spotlight on this scam.

It would be interesting to see if any Irish High Court judge would be willing to swim against the flow of Euro harmonisation and effectively remove Ireland from a deal that has taken forty years to set up.

The threat of 'arbitration' and High Court proceedings is laughable!

Perhaps it would be fair to start at the beginning and ask why the ATCO in this incident did not report this unlawful interference to the Gardai on the day :?: .

Terry Murphy

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Post by Tolka »

I believe that such "nav charges" contravene Eurocontrol regulations when applied to VFR traffic. In the case in question I think it would be unlikely that the ATCO would report the airport manager because, as I understand it, the ATCOs at the regional airports are employed by the airports. At the national airports the ATCOs are employed by the IAA.

Tolka

Lionel Hutz
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Post by Lionel Hutz »

The More I look into this the madder I get

Here it is in Black and White from Eurocontrol.

Annex B: Exemptions from EUROCONTROL Route Charges
The following categories of flights qualify for exemption from EUROCONTROL route
charges (unless indicated otherwise):
Flight operating under Visual Flight Rules (VFR)
Not exempt in:
Croatia - Cyprus - Italy - Moldova - Norway - Sweden
Note:VFR flights by aircraft in excess of 5.7 metric tons in the UK are not exempt.
Specific dignitary flights
These are flights performed exclusively for the transport, on official mission, of the
reigning Monarch and his/her immediate family, Heads of State, Heads of Government,
and Government Ministers. In all cases, the appropriate status indicator on the flight
plan must substantiate this.
Search And Rescue (SAR) flights
Authorised by a competent SAR body.
Flight by aircraft less than two metric tons
Exempt in all States.
Military flights
Exemptions specified per military user and per State.
Training flights *
Not exempt in:
Albania - Austria - Czech Republic - Denmark- FYROM - Germany -
Hungary - Norway - Slovak Republic - Slovenia - Switzerland
* Training flights must be performed solely within the airspace of the State from which
the flight departed. Therefore, international training flights are not exempt from the
EUROCONTROL route charge in any State.
Calibration flights
Not exempt in:
Denmark - FYROM - Germany - Malta

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Post by Vmax »

I would like to broaden the thread slightly.I heard it mentioned recently that Galway airport was asked by the coastguard if it could open after hours just in case an air ambulance(S-61) needed to pick up fuel.It just so happened that fuel wasn't required and the heli didn't land,the bill for this was ALLEGDELY,wait for it,8,000.00 euro. Beat that.:wink:

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Post by Terry Murphy »

Hi Tolka,

Even if the ATCO is a ?company? man or woman, they are licensed and approved by the IAA to operate on their (and by implication our) behalf within the confines of the rulebook.
I don?t want to single the ATCO out for any particular sanction in this case, but it is this type of ?grey complicity? that gives rise to the mistaken assumption by a few greedy ?suits? that signing the paycheque of an ?IAA man? legitimises their clear intention to disregard all prevailing international agreements and directives and engage in a ?fund-raising? exercise that is nothing short of air piracy.

If there?s a sniff of them getting away with this scam I?ll be off like a shot to the company?s office and register myself up as ?TM Class G Airspace Ltd.?
I?ll set myself up with a deck-chair, a pair of ?bins? and a notepad to jot down the reggies of all the over-flights through the 7'500ft. vertical tube of Class G over my back yard.
At the end of each month I?ll rip out a few thousand invoices to the unsuspecting operators charging them a ?Blocking Out My View of the Sky? fee...and let these newfangled 'Eurofeds' chew on that!

Ok?I got the idea from the IAA, but I still think it?s a good business plan nevertheless. :D

Regards,
Terry Murphy

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Post by RV BLUE »

Terry Murphy wrote:Hi Tolka,


If there?s a sniff of them getting away with this scam I?ll be off like a shot to the company?s office and register myself up as ?TM Class G Airspace Ltd.?


Ok?I got the idea from the IAA, but I still think it?s a good business plan nevertheless. :D

Regards,
Terry Murphy


Terry, your posts are a welcome sight, after so long. Its a pleasure to read your comments. What makes it so enjoyable is the idea of two "IAA" guys from opposite sides of the country having a "jar" and decideing to charge fees, percievieing that nobody will notice, and if they do..." begorra, sure what can they do about it." Terry, I hate to burst your bubble, but you would'nt be elligable to set up your own company, as your not a "cival servant." BTY e-mail me with your phone number....

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Post by Terry Murphy »

Hi RV 8) Check your PM's

TM

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