Revised DUBLIN CTR

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OW wright
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Post by OW wright »

............... ridiculously inflated the Dub CTR has become by increments over the years.

The bottom line here is that Dublin will soon operate one of the largest control zone ground surface................ regardless of it?s true requirements...................

........................ no apparent consideration or single concession has been given to maintain even a faint shadow of general aviation around the nation?s capitol.TM[/quote]

The increased size of the Dublin CTR will be be of huge benefit to the flying clubs based within the CTR at Dublin airport and Weston, who have students or PPL's who wish to obtain a night rating.

Weston don't have runway lighting but that i'd say it won't be long before it's installed, then of course there's the neighbours!! but
there is a way of getting around this hurdle as a PPL (VFR) on a Special VFR night detail means there can only be one Special VFR in the zone at any one time.

The incresed area will povide a larger training area south of the airport from Maynooth as far east to the zone boundary.
From Maynooth as far south as Kill across to Bray Head(1nm north of this point). This is of course when Baldonnel are not active.

It's not all doom and gloom ,people shouldn't be afraid or put off entering the Dublin CTR if you know were your going and were you are over the city at all times and familiar with the Reporing points and Visual holding patterns then Dublin ATC will look after you, if not there not going to jump down yout throat .
At the end of the day their interested in your's and everyone else's safety.

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Post by aidanmurphy »

Hi Terry,

Would mind emailing me a copy of the new DUBLIN-CTR chart that you managed to extract from that webaite ?

I have broadband, so a heavy download (if applicable) is not a problem.

My email address is:

aidan@awp.ie

Really appreciate it.

Aidan.

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Post by Terry Murphy »

OW Wright,

There?s every chance I could be misinterpreting the point of your post.

Are you suggesting this expansion in the Dublin CTR has been prompted by an overwhelming concern for the burgeoning hoards of PPL?s with aspirations to tag a night rating onto their tickets?

The question of GA pilots harbouring some unreasonable fear of zone entries and transits has nothing to do with the central point of my post, which was (and still is) the disproportionate allocation of CTR surface around EIDW when measured against corresponding areas in Western Europe that manage to serve far greater traffic pressures.

I am well aware of the difficulties arising from the potentially conflicting runway orientations of Dublin, Weston and Baldonnel.
However, the consistent policy regarding the redrafting of airspace around Dublin has always been ?when in doubt ? push it out?
Surely, efficient airspace designation should be based on the ?less is more? principal?

When I was based at Dublin airport I had first-hand experience of the ?benefits? bestowed on general aviation via the ?rigorous application? of every limitation and constriction ?they? could cynically derive from Class ?C? operation.

EIDW?s haste to rid itself of its troublesome burden of low revenue light aircraft was less that edifying to witness and difficult (and unwise) to forget.
When Weston airspace comes under the direct remit of Dublin ATC it will only be a matter of time until the ?games? begin.

You accuse me of spreading gloom and doom, but there are many others, apart from myself, who have seen the how significant swathes of general aviation can be easily consigned to the weeds by the unchallenged stroke of a pen.

For the sake of Irish GA, I hope that your optimism proves to be correct in the end.
This is one argument I would be only too happy to loose.

Unfortunately, my pessimism is not only based on personal opinion but rather the logical extrapolation of some pretty nasty recent history.

Regards,

TM

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Post by OW wright »

hello

quote[There?s every chance I could be misinterpreting the point of your post].

first of all, i didn't accuse you of anything.

quote[You accuse me of spreading gloom and doom]

second of all, i didn't suggest that the expansion of the Dublin CTR was propted by "overwhelming concern for the burgeoning hoards of PPL?s with aspirations to tag a night rating onto their tickets?''

I suggested that it would be welcomed by those based at Weston who would like to have a night rating without the expense of having to base an aircraft at Dublin Airport for the duration of obtaining the rating plus for those of us based at Dublin airport there is the added bonus of a larger area for night flying by Special VFR.

quote[The question of GA pilots harbouring some unreasonable fear of zone entries and transits has nothing to do with the central point of my post]

I didn't say that pilots have an "unreasonable fear of zone entries" i was merely saying that some pilots do feel put off by the 24 hrs PPR/Flight plan/Landing Fee's if they want to land at Dublin airport.

quote[the disproportionate allocation of CTR surface around EIDW when measured against corresponding areas in Western Europe that manage to serve far greater traffic pressures.]

I take your point but both Shannon and Cork have far larger CTR's at 962 square miles, 15 nm /17.25 sm radius, as opposed to the 728 square miles you say Dublin will now have and they would have nowhere near the traffic movemets that Dublin have.
In fact Dublin has 3 to 4 times more traffic movements than either Cork or Shannon and has 25% less airspace.

quote[However, the consistent policy regarding the redrafting of airspace around Dublin has always been ?when in doubt ? push it out?
When I was based at Dublin airport I had first-hand experience of the ?benefits? bestowed on general aviation via the ?rigorous application? of every limitation and constriction ?they? could cynically derive from Class ?C? operation.
EIDW?s haste to rid itself of its troublesome burden of low revenue light aircraft was less that edifying to witness and difficult (and unwise) to forget.]

I understand your frustration and anger and i know from being part of a club based at Dublin airport just how hard it to maintain our position which is under pressure from development at the airport and as you say low revenue light aircraft.

regards Terry and safe flying.

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Post by oldvolvotincan »

Im disappointed Mr Murphy in your replies. After speaking to a friend of mine who works and Dublin he suggests the following. The reason behind the extra zone is the HUGE number of zone incursions everyday by HOBBY pilots .

The IAA wanted that reassuring extra bit of piece of mind that controlled airspace can give them by knowing WHO/WHAT/WHERE/WHY. Rather than saying are you working that aircraft 2 miles out on approach 28 that just missed that packed Aircraft they can say quicker Turn EI-*** immediately.

It gives all pilots an extra bit of room to fly there aircraft .

Weston will not be able to us any Radar feed to control for the simple reason the Controllers in Westons towers are NOT radar qualified the screen is a computer processed image of the radar(there is a huge difference to the ATC radar screens and yes i know they are computer processed but westons feed will be in a different way) and not certified for use as a radar.

Do you know how many aircraft departing/arriving Weston in the last number of years have had Air proxs of possible disasterous consequences . Enough to turn your hair white pretty quick.

This has been brought on by the following factors

1)increased operations from Weston that need entry/exit to the East through the Zone.

2)Poor airmanship that has not been controlled by training/retraining/ops gossip/word of mouth has forced the IAA to step in and do something that can return some sort of discipline to its close neighbour .

3)Baldonnel who are sick and tired of zone incursions.

4)No formalised way of getting the high performance aircraft that now frequent Weston in and out in marginal weather conditions.

5)A sandwiched airspace caused by Militarys requirements to have a large portion of its airspace technically in the wrong place. Which you dont find near Heathrow or Stansted .

6)Unfortunetly History placed Weston to close to Right base 10 and Baldonnel which makes for hairy moments for controllers postioning aircraft for the approach .Remember a few hundred feet too high or malfunctioning transponder or no mode c readout can cause serious issues for GAT traffic like TA climbs missed approaches which causes high stress levels in cockpit and centre.

If Weston had been near summerhill then this would never have happened. You are incorrect in your assertions . Look at the airspace now place Weston near summerhill what constraints would you have had VERTICAL only . Look at the SIDS for Heathrow they take them immediately away from the airfields you metioned . You will find that the airfields know there place and that they should stay well clear for there own sakes.

99.9% Dublin has no issues whatsoever with Weston or GA pilots its the .1% of the time when a serious issue happens like an airprox that blood pressure goes up. You miss judge DATCC's abilities .If you can find an ATCO they will tell you to your face that they really dont mind that Weston is where it is . Don't take your Vile out on them take it out on the empty suits in Aviation house who frankly as we all read on this forum haven't a breeze who design the procedures and airspace and dump it on the ATCO's who rarely get any input into what happens .

I for one think that these airspace changes will be a good thing for us at Weston . The extra Safety and security that they bring will make me feel better in the left seat next time i saddle up.

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Post by Terry Murphy »

Mr. oldvolvotincan,

I can understand disagreement with my point of view, but disappointment?

Let me emphasise the point of my original post on this subject by reducing it to a direct question.
What is so different about Dublin that it has always required such disproportionate CTR acreage relative to that of London and other major European airports?

At no time have I objected to the principle of class ?C? operation around Weston.
I can clearly see the safety advantages of controlled airspace for the area.

My ?disappointment? lies with the lost opportunity to reduce some of Dublin?s airspace obesity, or at least provide some rational plan to facilitate a few sane VFR corridors. Ones that don?t squeeze single engine flights between a mountain and a zone bust, or require SE flight at 800? over open water ? as has been seen in the past.

In light of the fact that this airspace change is written in stone, any argument I present is by definition futile.
However, it does reinforce a long-held personal view that airspace boundaries around Dublin are drawn in the fashion of a battle plan, with the acquisition of ?ground? and the expansion of a ?front line? as a bulwark against criminally reckless ?hobby pilots?
and clueless students etc.

Regarding these, the ?gossip? you mention in the corridors of Hawkins St. should be replaced with an hour or two of actual work in the dissemination of clear aeronautical information accessible to the majority of ?hobby pilots? that don?t have a masters degree in cryptography.
Perhaps they might start by scratching out some version of a ? mil VFR map (newest decade edition)

The premature ageing of Dublin ATC staff by the airborne ?squirrels? leaping out of EIWT and randomly darting for the approach end of their runways is of course worrying. Hopefully, this problem should be effectively reduced by the new airspace arrangement...time will tell.

It?s a pity that the ludicrous class ?G? wedge hitherto allocated to Weston was not given some elbow room in which to accommodate such distractions as avoiding Mrs. McGintys garden on a Tuesday when she was hanging out her bloomers or turning right on Thursdays and an extra bit right on Fridays for some rumoured noise abatement procedure.
All this will be history very soon?and that?ll be no bad thing.

Let me put the record straight. I have no axe to grind with ATC anywhere, anyplace.
They work within the confines allocated to them, and I have had many an occasion to be particularly grateful for the professionalism and help that Dublin has provided me with when situations have crept towards ?marginal?
I would be the first to admit that I can be a thoroughly obnoxious cove when the mood takes me, but I don?t think I?ve taken my ?Vile?(sic) out on anyone.

I have certainly ?vented my spleen? here at the prospect of this airspace change because I view it as a lost opportunity to take a clean sheet of paper approach to relieve the bottlenecks that have plagued GA in the area for decades.

Perhaps there is no real technical resolution to these long standing problems for geographic and other reasons? but then after all, what would I know?
I am just one of those ?hobby pilots? with a gut feeling that there is something fundamentally askew when there is not one inch of uncontrolled airspace worth talking about above the entire county of Dublin...and now beyond.

Regards,
TM

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Post by oldvolvotincan »

Im glad you have qualified your stance slightly better now.

Maybe if you sat down and studied the new airspace chart or waited to see who gets what airspace you might actually relax your attitude. My belief is that when military airspace is not active the "closed" R15 is going to be under the control of Weston therefore we will have more room to play in . If you look at some of the proposed instrument charts you will see the new Weston zone has infact got much bigger. In fact in proportion to Dublins Zone increase i reckon Westons airspace has Tripled .

Looks like 4nm to the east, 5nm to the west, no change to the south and 3-4nm to the north and its roughly square , how is this change NOT to our advantage ?

This is a zone within a zone . Therefore Dublin should have no issue with non Mode C aircraft within Westons zone as they are/should be under Westons control unless they propose entering Dublins zone which needs prior coordination/approval.

What is so different about Dublin that it has always required such disproportionate CTR acreage relative to that of London and other major European airports?


Having to spoken to my friend he says that Dublin ATCO's don't want the zone to be any further north than the VOR or south than Liffey because good as there eyesight maybe they can't really see beyond Killiney to Bray . Much of the zone size has to do with the protection that IFR arrivals require for the instrument approaches hence its size to the north east and west , someone has to provide radar service to traffic going into Baldonnel rwy 29 and when 34/28 is active that HAS to be Dublin radar so thats why there is extra space to the south beyond Killiney besides all this standard radar separation at the time the zone was drawn up and expanded was 5nm lateral and that still stands if there is a loss of equipment 3nm falls back to 5nm so buffer areas have to be added to all the approaches so for ease of operation you have the zone we have at the moment . Imagine trying to operate/control if ATC just stook to a zone that protects the approaches 16/28/10/34 plus 05/23 orginally .

Like you say this is coming in, so rights or wrongs we just have to live with it. 8)

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Post by OW wright »

oldvolvotincan wrote: My belief is that when military airspace is not active the "closed" R15 is going to be under the control of Weston......

Looks like 4nm to the east, 5nm to the west, no change to the south and 3-4nm to the north and its roughly square , how is this change NOT to our advantage ?

The new Dublin CTR has been expanded to include Weston and the R15. Weston has been designated resonsibility of their portion of the new Dublin CTR within their hours of operation as is the same for the R15, R23 is active H24.
I'd say that when Baldonnel are not active then the R15 will be controlled by Dublin ATC as will be the same outside of Weston's hours of operation.
The ultimate responsibility for the whole CTR therefore lies with Dublin ATC.

The Weston CTR is clearly depicted on EIWT AD 2.24-3, AIP AIRAC AMMENDMENT Nr. 48 03 AUG 06.


This is a zone within a zone . Therefore Dublin should have no issue with non Mode C aircraft within Westons zone as they are/should be under Westons control unless they propose entering Dublins zone which needs prior coordination/approval.


AIC Nr. 1/03 01 JAN ,states

An aircraft so equipped (Mode C Transponder) but with its transponder temporarily unserviceable may be admitted to Class C airspace only , at the discretion of the ATS Unit responsible for air traffic services provision in that airspace, on an exceptional case by case basis only, provided that:-

- the aircraft concerned shall immediately vacate such airspace when so instructed by the ATS unit concerned.

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Post by aidanmurphy »

Telephoned AIS in Shannon this morning (061-703730) to enquire when 'edition 4' of the ICAO 1:500,000 chart would be available...

All I got was a 'Wha ?' back as the reply.

I re-worded my simple question and threw in a 'Will the new edition 4 have any upgrades re amended Dublin airspace on it ? "

I'm not going to embarrass the IAA any further with the response that answer gave.

It is it any wonder I always register my balloons in the UK ?

Aidan.

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Post by OW wright »

hello Aidan

i phoned the IAA a cople of week's ago and was told that the delay was due to the airspace change at weston and that the chart should be available in august, fingers crossed.
the changes are published in the latest AIP ammendments so it shouldn't be to much longer before we have the new 1:500 000 chart.

was it possible to get an AIP from shannon?

regards

OW
Last edited by OW wright on Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by aidanmurphy »

I only enquired about the chart.

Just to fill you in:

As a balloonist, the I.A.A forbids ANY ballooning activity taking place within Irish airspace to do so within 'controlled airspace'.

Even though the IAA insist that any balloonist (from any JAA country), while flying in EIRE must hold a valid R/T license and I don't mean an exemption.

I don't have this problem in the UK and have flown within the Bristol CTR and over many civil (and military) aerodromes in the UK etc. All this with the full permission of the relevant ATC, as the controllers do just that .....'control' the other traffic in the area atc. Never any issues.

Aidan.

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Post by oldvolvotincan »

As a balloonist, the I.A.A forbids ANY ballooning activity taking place within Irish airspace to do so within 'controlled airspace'.


All this with the full permission of the relevant ATC, as the controllers do just that .....'control' the other traffic in the area atc. Never any issues


Ok thats IAA HQ's decision not the controllers they are not one in the same controllers don't make the rules. We all know about IAA HQ's inabilities and shortsightedness .

And i imagine that if you were to fly in the Cavan area Controllers wouldnt give two hoots if you were up in controllered airspace up there you can be nearly be upto fl80, how high do you actually want to go ? . Whereas a lot of balloning activity happens around the Trim area a bit close to arrivals routes with a transponder on each ballon. Not a problem but if there is none ATC can't see all that metal on your ballon on primary radar, oops there is none therefore your stealth . Imagine looking at a blank radar screen with a pilot saying he is south of Trim at fl70 drifting south east at 7mph, eh where exactly !.

Its partially for your safety as well you know how would you like a minibus up your chuff or passing you by at 250kts whats the standard separation for something you can't see .

Im not defending or explaining the rulings in all honesty as long as they know where you are within reason it shouldnt be a problem but the IAA HQ is a law unto themselves they do have to justify there jobs and there is only so much paper they can push around all day .

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Post by aidanmurphy »

All duly noted....

I usually fly from Robinstown (not the air-field), Bective, Castlemartin (Kells Rd) and when an easterly permits from my own farm here in Dunshaughlin.

I don't usually fly above 1500 feet unless overflying a sensitive area etc...

Aidan.

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Post by Biturbo »

OW wright wrote:was is possible to get an AIP from shannon?


I got the new AIP on CD through my letterbox the other day. It'll make updating a much easier process for me (VFR only, not using Oceanic or indeed airways, etc., etc.). Onwards bravely into the future!

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Post by Pilot »

I got the new AIP on CD through my letterbox the other day. It'll make updating a much easier process for me (VFR only, not using Oceanic or indeed airways, etc., etc.). Onwards bravely into the future!


What's the cost?



This is a zone within a zone . Therefore Dublin should have no issue with non Mode C aircraft within Westons zone as they are/should be under Westons control unless they propose entering Dublins zone which needs prior coordination/approval.


The trouble with this is that Weston don't have the authority to let non mode C traffic in either. They can if it's mode C equipped but the equipment is temporarly u/s, but have no authority to let it in if it's not mode C equipped at all.

Such permission would have to come from the IAA.

P

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