Revised DUBLIN CTR

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OW wright
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Revised DUBLIN CTR

Post by OW wright »

AIP AIRAC AMENDMENT Nr. 48 03 AUG 06

Revised DUBLIN CTR, from the 3 August 2006 Dublin CTR airspace will be enlarged .
the new CTR will include the proposed airspace changes at Weston and also the R15, the R23 will remain H24.
this will mean for operations at Weston that flight plans will be mandatory and also a mode C transponder will be mandatory.
a maximum of three aircraft only may operate in the circuit at any one time.

see visual approach chart EIDW AD 2.24-28 (3 Aug 06)

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Post by mark »

Hi OW Wright,

From reading the S.I.'s and listening to people on the ground at Weston it would appear a Mode C transponder is not required to operate in Class C airspace, you only need a two-way radio and permission to enter the airspace. In reality I don't think there's going to be huge difference in day to day opeations at Weston. As it stands you need to pass your pilot in command and detail to the tower, that in effect is a flight plan. Obviously the visibility minimas will change and you will receive clearences rather than just flight information.

I think all round it will make for a better training environment, espicially if runway lights are installed and night operations are allowed.
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Mark Dwyer
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Post by OW wright »

hi mark

AIC Nr. 1/03 01 JAN ,states

An aircraft so equipped (Mode C Transponder) but with its transponder temporarily unserviceable may be admitted to Class C airspace only , at the discretion of the ATS Unit responsible for air traffic services provision in that airspace, on an exceptional case by case basis only, provided that:-

- the aircraft concerned shall immediately vacate such airspace when so instructed by the ATS unit concerned.

while Dublin ATC will make an exception for one or maybe two aircraft i'm not sure their going to want a lot of aircraft in their airspace with no transponder.

it makes it a lot safer for youreself and ATC if they can definetly identify you and similar traffic.

as for the flight plan i think you'll find that that will be mandatory and Dublin ATC are going to want one. there 's no real hassle anyway.

i fly out of Dublin airport so have to file a flight plan. it gives Dublin Atc a chance to know who and what your going to be doing, for examlple you may want to exit the zone at palmerstown roundabout or you may returning to Dublin airport from the south east in which case you'll be landing on 11/29.

quote:As it stands you need to pass your pilot in command and detail to the tower, that in effect is a flight plan.

that's in Class G airspace at the moment and may be alright if your heading out to the west but if your planing on fly in the zone then your going to have to file a flight plan.

Dublin ATC are there for your benifit if you work with them they'll look after you and given the ammount of traffic in and out of weston it makes sense to make good neighbours

your just going to have to get used to operating in Class C airspace![/u]

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Post by mark »

Hi OW Wright,

Thanks for that, I stand corrected on the transponder issue :oops: !

I know that Dublin ATC will want a flight plan but if aircraft are operating between Weston and the west is there any need for aircraft to contact Dublin ATC, can they not just contact Dub FIS? And since Weston have no radar feed, it could be difficult to police never mind provide separation.

I fly a Piper Cub that has no electrics and a handheld radio. Where does that leave me? Will I be accepted on a case by case basis?

OW wright wrote: Dublin ATC are there for your benifit if you work with them they'll look after you and given the ammount of traffic in and out of weston it makes sense to make good neighbours


I agree here.


OW wright wrote:while Dublin ATC will make an exception for one or maybe two aircraft i'm not sure their going to want a lot of aircraft in their airspace with no transponder.


Although the new airspace will become the DUB CTR,it's my understanding that Weston will be controlling their section of it so is it not up to EIWT who they accept? Many aircraft at Weston are not transponder equipped, what will happen to them?

What are other peoples experiences operating from some of the regional airports around the country regarding operating from CTR's?
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Mark Dwyer
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Post by OW wright »

Hi Mark

[quote] "if aircraft are operating between Weston and the west is there any need for aircraft to contact Dublin ATC, can they not just contact Dub FIS? And since Weston have no radar feed, it could be difficult to police never mind provide separation".

I fly a Piper Cub that has no electrics and a handheld radio. Where does that leave me? Will I be accepted on a case by case basis?[quote]

this is an intresting situation mark as the aircraft was based at Weston before this change came about. i'm no expert so we're going to have find out from Dublin ATC or the IAA.

i know that the two aircraft i fly in the AFC in Dublin aiport are transponder equiped and we're always given a transponder code wether we're going cross coutry or just a short hop out to Trim.

i'm not sure what conditions if any Dublin ATC required when Weston proposed the airspace change ,maybe you can find out up in Weston.
have the NFC being informed of any new requirements with regard to operations in the new Class C airspace?

[quote]Although the new airspace will become the DUB CTR,it's my understanding that Weston will be controlling their section of it so is it not up to EIWT who they accept? Many aircraft at Weston are not transponder equipped, what will happen to them?

i wonder will weston change from a FIS to ATC/FIS with a radar feed from Dublin ,if that's possible.

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Post by Pilot »

1.1 Rules and procedures for navigation within the Weston Area of Responsibility of the Dublin CTR
are available from the manager, Weston Airport and compliance with these is mandatory. Some of
the principal Rules and Procedures are as follows:
1.1.1. A flight plan is mandatory;
1.1.2. A mode C transponder is mandatory;
1.1.3. A maximum of three aircraft only may operate in the visual training circuit simultaneously;
1.1.4. Adhere to the circuit in use as specified by ATS;
1.1.5. Adhere to the circuit procedures as provided at 2 below


Taken directly from the new Airac entry for Weston Airport.

It also defines an area of the Dublin CTR which Weston will be responsible for (I haven't plotted out the co-ordinates).

Weston will be an ATC service. It has to be to controll the class C.

All aircraft in Dublin are transponder equipped. If a fault develops Dublin will usually accomodate a return to the field or departure to get it fixed, but will not allow you to operate routinely without it.

At the end of the day, the AIP requires a transponder in all controlled airspace in Ireland. That was one of the reasons I critised the proposal, and highlighted it here (and to the IAA in a letter).

As I understand it from informal conversations, Weston will be getting a radar feed, but will not be able to use it to control. I'm not really too clear on this, and I may have it wrong. It didn't really make a lot of sense to me, what I heard.

As for flight plans, technically these can be passed over the R/T. Weston may facilitate locally based aircraft on training flights to take it over the R/T. This will be up to them. I understand from the NAGA AGM that they have agree to do this.......how long this will last is another thing though.

P

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Post by mark »

OW Wright and Pilot,

Thanks for your comments, I'll ask around at Weston to see what the plans are for based aircraft, and the procedures in general once the above comes into place.

Regards,
Mark

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Post by Canacourse »

A corridor to the nearest exit point of the CTR could have been provided for non transponder Radio equipped aircraft.

I think this has been done in the UK to allow farmers and the like fly in and out in non transponder radio equipped AC (Of which there are many) in airspace which had been re-classified. I too fly a non-transponder AC so it looks like Weston is now out of bounds for me.

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Post by aidanmurphy »

Has the IAA got updated charts published yet depicting the new (revised) CTR around EIDW yet ?

Thanks,

Aidan.
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Re: Revised DUBLIN CTR

Post by OW wright »

hello Aidan,

if you have an AIP then you should recieve the AIP AIRAC Ammendments in the post.

AIP AIRAC AMENDMENT Nr. 48 03 AUG 06

Revised DUBLIN CTR, from the 3 August 2006 Dublin CTR airspace will be enlarged .
the new CTR will include the proposed airspace changes at Weston and also the R15.

see visual approach chart EIDW AD 2.24-28 (3 Aug 06)

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Post by aidanmurphy »

Thanks for that.

I don't have access to AIP.

Gld you get sorted on the PPL(B) query.

Aidan.

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Post by OW wright »

aidan

why don't you give shannon a ring and see if they'll send you out an AIP (hardcopy) . i got mine for free and the ammendments are posted free as well, that was a coulple of years ago but you might be lucky and still be able to get one. 061 703750

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Post by Pilot »

You can look it up on the dreadful Eurocontrol website. You'll have to register and probably install a lot of java....I hope you have broadband and a lot of patience....but it does work.

Click here for the Eurocontrol website

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Post by aidanmurphy »

Many Thanks...

Will give both options a try...

Much appreciated.

Aidan.

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Post by Terry Murphy »

I scored a minor personal victory by actually dragging a copy of the revised EIDW CTR chart from the catastrophic EADS website.

What struck me immediately was how ridiculously inflated the Dub CTR has become by increments over the years.

By transferring an outline of the new zone into a CAD programme I was able to arrive at a fairly accurate reading of the areas involved (+/- 10 sq. miles)

This is what I came up with?

The surface area of the new Dublin zone is ? 728 square miles (statute)
Compare this with the surface area of London Heathrow at 463 sq. miles and Stansted with a surface area of a mere 198 sq. miles.

If my sums are correct, this means that the area occupied by Dublin zone could accommodate one of the busiest airports in the Western hemisphere (Heathrow) plus the Stansted CTR?and, still have 67 sq miles left over to classify as Class A, Restricted, or whatever bulls**t they dream up for it on the day.

In the Heathrow zone they can handle the ?stress? of three GA airfields with far greater traffic pressure than Weston, i.e. Denham, Fairoaks and White Waltham ? this latter being in an equivalent position to the Heathrow centrelines as the 252 mast is to the Rwy10 centreline of Dublin
(imagine the pandemonium and nervous collapse that would reign in a certain ?tower? if Weston was positioned just north of Summerhill!!!)
So what's so special about Dublin that it needs over 1.5 times the area of LHR?

The bottom line here is that Dublin will soon operate one of the largest control zone ground surface areas of any civil airport in the world regardless of it?s true requirements in terms of traffic movement and pressure
?and in all of this, no apparent consideration or single concession has been given to maintain even a faint shadow of general aviation around the nation?s capitol.

TM

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