Rip off airports

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Chaos
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Post by Chaos » Fri May 05, 2006 10:30 am

A Kerry Development Tax? Can anyone explain what the hell is a Kerry Development Tax.

You know there was a recent high profile case of a motor trade dealer facilitating the rigging of price fixing practices which the cartel investigation unit of the Competition Authority uncovered. They might be interested in investigating the airport authorities and regional airport authorities.

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Post by BlueMoon » Sat May 20, 2006 9:45 am

Jeezzz.....what a load of moaners. I don't own my own a/c but have an interest in aviation and the moaning and whinging as seen in this thread is why you guys get bad treatment at Regional Airports.

Let me expand....just cos you own your own a/c doesn't mean everything else is FREE. Airports are there to make money...its' simple maths. Schedule / Charter / Corporate pay fees....why not you guys. Earlier complaint that 'he was charged for training'....jeez - what does he expect. He is probably paying some instructor through the nose and moans that he has to pay to land at a regional airport.!!!! You guys use ATC, maybe lights, maybe Marshalling, customs & immigration to be advised, refuelling etc...and expect it free. You can afford to buy and insure an a/c and them expect that the world owes YOU!!!!

The facts are that most Regionals have a range of charges from LAnding , Handling, PLF and some have Security or Development fee. They charge a landing fee on a per metric tonne. Whether it is Eur6.35 pmt of Eur10 pmt depends on the airport. So if Johnny paid Eur20 and PAddy only paid Eur10 ...well it is because there 2 different weighted aircraft. Also....most Regionals charge other fees for passenger handling and these are based on departing pax (who are being picked up). They do NOT charge for pilots and co-pilots arriving. Aer Arann and Ryanair are charged per departing pax...why should pvt flights be exempt. There is a departing passenger charge and that is it. Passenges have to be handled , security screened, baggage screened, transported to remotely parked a/c.....why shouldn't this be charged????

I can see why Regional Airports see this pvt a/c business as a 'nuisance'. You guys will have to take the blame yourselves as to why some airporst just don't handle you.....you are your own worst enemy. Compalins of 'rude staff ' etc Ha HA...look at your selves!! Arrive and then complain about the charges!!! Airport staff have jobs to do and if you don't like the charges....don't come back!!!! I am sure that the 7airport won't go under due to the loss of your Eur27.

Guys,,, get a grip. You pay for everything in this life.....you have choices...make them and live with them. You don't make the world go around and if you have to have an expensive hobby...don't expect the rest of the world to subsidise you. A thread on Rip Off Airports.....what a bunch of moaners . And letters to the Authorities...or was it to Eddie Hobbs.??? Make it you business to know the charges appolicable to whatever airport you are going do.....if you arrive and plead ignorant... then your loss!! Regional Airports are in the free market and prices will differ.....that's basic economics of supply and demand!! There is 'no hidden agenda' out there to screw 'poor us'.....you pay to play and it's your loss if you couldn't be bothered to do you sums before hand.

So ..think on and remember.. you reap what you sow!!!

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Post by willo » Sat May 20, 2006 10:23 am

Blue Moon,

That is a very glib statement.

The tenet of the thread here is that many airports do not provide in advance their costs etc, thereby leaving the pilot wondering what he will have to pay.

This is further compounded by inconsistencies in charging. Airports that advertise their rate (eg Shannon) charge in steps of 1000 kg and you can be sure that most pilots on this thread fly aricraft with MTOW less than 1000kg, so there should be no difference in costs, aside from the passenger fees, for which I would agree with you.

You state that the pilot should make it his business to know the cost and this is a fair comment, but as stated above, not always attainable.
I overnighted last week in Shannon, their website gave me full details of landing and parking fees so I knew I was going to get a bill of ?50. However, this information is not so easily got from many regionals.

This problem particularly came to light when a UK visitor landed at a regional and was charged ?76, the issue was highlighted in Flying in Ireland. Not good PR from a tourism point of view.

Finally your very glib comment that we are all pilots therefore we are supposed to be rolling in it & we should cough up whatever we are billed is reprehensible. This elitist view held back sport flying in this & other countries for many years. It also implies that we should accept all charges no matter their basis or lack thereof. I assume that when you put petrol in your car you will go the one supplying the cheapest, when you insure your car, you will shop around, because if not, you are one of the many contributing to inflationary pressures in our economy

Brian

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Post by StephenM » Sat May 20, 2006 3:27 pm

Try a ?1050 landing fee for LGW! We deserved it though for landing a PA-28 during peak hours! :D

This is who they parked us beside:
Image

But service with a smile:
Image

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Post by ceatach » Sat May 20, 2006 4:09 pm

What a waste of a marshaller. You should have thrown her a table-tennis ball to give her something to do.

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Post by Bearcat » Sun May 21, 2006 7:28 am

you'll have to tell us what took you to LGW as against Biggin etc?

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rip off airports

Post by Fanstop » Sun May 21, 2006 1:33 pm

Interesting comments from Bluemoon.
We should be grateful and if we dont like the charge just go elsewhere.
I think he overlooks the point(s). Firstly the lack of services (no avgas at Shannon for example) and the very great difficulty in finding out the charges in advance, (they often change en-route). I wonder does he think its fine for Galway to charge a fee for going through their zone? They dont give any service for that fee either and its difficult to find out about it beforehand.

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Post by Sticksforward » Sun May 21, 2006 3:18 pm

Jesus Guys ur talkin about LGW how about our own EIWT, last year parking fees for the year went from 4.5k to 20k for a light single? thats a classic example of rip off ireland where it is supposed to be GA friendly!
:twisted:

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Post by BlueMoon » Sun May 21, 2006 7:41 pm

FunStop....

.... I don't think I missed the point!!! The thread is Rip Off Airports.....and the 1st two pages are about having to pay fees of some sort. Comes across as 'Why have I to pay XX in Kerry when I pay YY in Galway'???

Fun.... I could start the same thread on petrol stations ...or even Burger Joints... A Restaurant... or the price of a pint in Dublin versus Clare. Is the Free Market as Maggie Thatcher would say. Economics of Supply and Demand. Same applies to EIWT....... if the markets will pay ?24k for parking...why give it away for ?4k. Way of the world now I am afraid.... House Prices and Land are a prime example. If the guy paying the 4k won't pay the 24k.... then the next in line will!!!! But you can't plame airports for this increase.... they are getting the best dealthey can get out there and that's good management. There is no rule to say they have an obligation to keep prices down!!!

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Post by nosedive » Mon May 22, 2006 9:36 am

Blue Moon, the interaction of supply and demand is, indeed, a strong price driver but there is also the principle that profit maximisation is only of benfit in the shor term and in the end GA will suffer beacuse of this greed - parking fees of ?4.5k to ?20k being a prime example.................
Another broken undercarriage........

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Post by DivX » Mon May 22, 2006 2:20 pm

Got to agree with Blue Moon on some isues here

Every airport have contact numbers and most are PPR, all it takes is a phone call - Hello Galway, I plan to fly into you today in a C172 can you advise me of the landing and handling charges.

At this point you now have a decision, Their robbing bast*ards I not going there or that a reasonable price see you later.

One thing I dont agree with is the levy at Kerry, Knock and Waterford also charge a levy, but only to commerical flights. Private flights should be exempt.

Regards
Dv

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Post by BlueMoon » Mon May 22, 2006 2:33 pm

DivX.

Appreciate the support!!!!

As regards the levy.....why exempt GA business. In Kerry's case - their fee is called an Airport Development Fee....their way to fund the developments at the airport. They have to fund their own Capital Projects up to 25% themselves (with the NDP assisting with the balance subject to limits and govt approval). The general public would say why should I who live in London pay this levy??? Or why don't the aircraft user pay the levy as a considerable amount of the development is aviation related (lighhting / navigation systens / weather stations etc) and they benefit most. How would that wash with GA?????

So Divx....you can see there can be no exemptions......the way the regionals are apply the Levy (whether Security or Development ) seems fair as it applies to ALL users. Starting exempting a certain fractiona nd the whole idea will start to collaspse.!

Regards

BlueMoon

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Post by StephenM » Mon May 22, 2006 4:20 pm

Bearcat wrote:you'll have to tell us what took you to LGW as against Biggin etc?


We went for the "Experience" of landing in Gatwick, and it was some experience although we were expecting a much lower bill as we were supposed to land in the afternoon. The plane is based at Biggin so naturally we just landed at LGW before heading back to Biggin.

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Post by 900EX » Wed May 24, 2006 1:46 am

Hey Bluemoon... Interesting stuff but not as simple as you propose. Frankly I would disagree with your supply/demand theory as the explanation for greed. Regretably Ireland is indeed developing a deeply grained taste for the "how much can we extract today" mentality. As you correctly pointed out you can speak of any subject from alcohol to housing to the cost of a loaf of bread and the common denominator ? Yes of course, the price.

You strike me as one that is quite fully compliant with such mentality ? Do you not agree that Ireland may pay a heavy price economically as our cost base move well away from more moderate nations ?

Ultimately if business supports fair pricing then you can achieve critical mass, Without critical mass it is almost impossible to move forward and build infrastucture, achieve organic growth and expand our nations ability to host specific niche industries such as a general aviation industry.

I recently wrote of my experiences living in the US which I copied below. As you read the message (if of course you choose to do so) please understand that these businesses could easily charge handsomely for their services but that does not happen. Why ? Its simple really, they intend to preserve and nurture aviation for the future and not just for the moment. Of course they do generate revenue through increased fuel sales, food services etc. Controlled and calculated revenue generation rather than the predatory style refered to in this thread.

Sincerely/MK

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I moved to Boulder, Colorado from Cork last year. Although I fly a jet for a rich guy I genuinely love to fly piston twins/singles.

Many of you will be well aware of just how good it is flying in the U.S.. However I can assure you that living here and flying on a daily basis is phenomenal. For example - Last night myself and a friend flew from our local airfield Boulder (1V5) down to a field called Centennial (KAPA) for dinner.. KAPA is one of the busiest GA fields in the USA. Upon arrival we were instructed to park our Cessna 206 between a Citation Bravo and a Citation 10. The FBO treated us with courtesy and respect even though we were flying a simple Cessna single. Absolutely no snobbery whatsoever. They chocked our airplane and then drove us in the golf buggy to the airfield restaurant. The COST for this excellent service ? Not a single dime. Upon leaving the guy simply said do come back and see us again soon.

Flying back north again towards Boulder we are overflying Denver and I get on with Denver Departure with request. I ask them if I could shoot an ILS in to Denver International and the guy asks aircraft type. When I tell him he says "sure not a problem"... Denver International is a very big and busy airport. In fact it has 6 runways (12 with reciprocals) of which 4 are 12000ft and 2 are 16000ft in length. However they in our light single treated us just like anyone else. The cost ? Nothing.

The range of places to fly is just mind blowing. From my home here in Boulder I can draw a circle on a sectional of say 200NM.. From there I can visit airfields such as Aspen Ski resort, Santa Fe, New Mexico, Yellowstone to the north or the Black Hills, South Dakota. You are guaranteed to be treated well every time you touch down.

Of course Ireland is a beautiful place to live and fly. However for those of you that have not experienced G.A in the USA I would heartily recommend it at your first opportunity.

I don?t mean to sound as if I am gloating because I assure you that is not the case. I really just want to share my experience with a group of people whom I feel very much apart of having lived in Ireland for most of my life.

If any of you would like to do some flying here in Colorado then please do not hesitate to get in touch. I can hook you up with virtually brand new aircraft (mostly G1000 equiped). Also the weather here is CAVOK more than 300 days per year. BA have direct flights from London to Denver !

Slainte.

Michael
info@jeteco.com
Celer fuga....

BlueMoon
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Post by BlueMoon » Wed May 24, 2006 10:19 am

900...

.....I don't fee that maximising your revenue in aperiod of high demand is greed!!!! Management of any organisation (whether it be aviation of food or electronics) has an obligation to maximise revenue. You'll charge what the market will pay.

I don't like to see the word greed applied to Regional Airports as if they were ripping people off!! The earlier threads concern having to pay fees and the variance in same. Paying ?27 for a series of services and calling it greed is a bit rich coming from people who have paid thousands to buy, insure, maintain. train etc an aircraft and then complaining at having to pay fees in a commercially run airport. Their argument is that airports charges are 'greed' (mainly because they didn't either understand them or bothered to find out in advance of their likely costs) whereas my argument is that airports are entitled to charge for services rendered and that if one airport is more expensive than another ..this is due to the fact that the dearer airport has a captive market willing to pay these fees. To say that an airport charging ?27 is greedy (and starting Rip Off Airport thread on it) is not fair. Jeez...I can't get a plumber to change a tap (5 minutes work) for less that a min. charge of ?40.

As to how the airports mentioned in your thread can operate ona NIL charge basis is beyond me. Maybe it is an american vs irish difference thing???? Like they have free local calls ..we dont!! We get half portions whereas they get enough to be ablle to bring a doggy-bag home. If just a fact of life in Ireland that all services ar charged. I personnal do not believe in giving free charges in a Regional Airport scernario (based on the limited sizes on them here) as the ramp will fill with 'none-payers' out for the day/weekend and revenue from commercial traffic will be affected. As I said earlier... I don't see why GA traffic should be free...what devine authority would give them that right. Hence the purposes of my opening thread about whinging about fees....

What is the point in a commercially run Regional Airport with limited space spending the time in building up GA traffic relationships to generate more ?27 revenue. One corporate jet alone would generate fee of ?100+.. this is the traffic that should be worked on from my point of view. 4 times the revenue for the same amount of work!!

900.....life is tough on us all here in Ireland and we all have to pay as we play!!! GA aviation is no exception.

Regards

Bluemoon

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