VFR at Night

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stovepipe
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Re: VFR at Night

Post by stovepipe » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:12 pm

hi there
A friend of mine used to do it routinely. He'd fly across from Scotland, legal Night VFR to the FIR and ask for and get a Special from the FIR to Dublin. He'd be high so he'd talk to Shannon first and then get handed over to Dublin and go on and land in Dublin. He wasn't alone in doing it either. So, it must be possible.

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by NAG » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:42 pm

Aidoair wrote:Sounds a bit odd to me that you cant fly VFR at night in Ireland . I hold a USA ppl and have to do whats called night currency , meaning once every 90 days I have to do 3 take offs and landings to full stop in order to be night current . If not then its just the same flight with an instructor to become current again .
It's very similar here. The difference is that to be night current (in order to carry passengers), you don't need an instructor beside you if you go for more than 90 days without doing your 3 'stop n gos'. You just do them yourself (afaik), then you can carry passengers again.
Aidoair wrote:For the USA PPL there is night flying time required and a dual night cross country vfr.
Here, it's a separate rating. It's not part of the PPL syllabus.
Aidoair wrote:It dont make sence that you should have to have an IFR rating to fly vfr at night.
You've got the wrong end of the stick there. You can't even fly VFR at night even if you have an IR! Currently you can only fly at night (outside a control zone) if you have an IR and fly IFR. If you don't have an IR, you can only fly SVFR and only within a control zone.

Before the law changed in the UK it was different; you could fly outside control zones VFR but you had to comply with IFR (and no, you don't need an IR to comply with IFR). That has now changed. You can now fly VFR at night complying with VFR. So in fact, you could say that we are two steps behind the UK regarding night flying.

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by buggyB » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:13 pm

2.1 According to Rule 20(2) of the Rules of the Air Regulations 2007, aircraft flying at night in the UK must do so in accordance with the IFR unless flying in a Control Zone on a Special VFR flight.
2.2 According to the EASA Aircrew Regulation (Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011) JAR-FCL licences became Part-FCL licences on 8 April 2012, and, in accordance with Part-FCL, the holder of such a licence requires an Instrument Rating (IR) to act as pilot in command of an IFR flight.
2.3 Without intervention, one impact of Part-FCL is that pilots wishing to fly at night in the UK now need to hold both a Night Rating and an IR.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP493Supp ... ssue02.pdf
So the IAA are already acting in compliance with the new Regs and do not need to do anything, it's just that the CAA are actively taking steps to make nVFR legal outside of a control zone.

On a side note I noticed:
At and below 3,000 ft amsl
Class F and G airspace ¦ Clear of cloud with the surface in sight ¦ 5 km

For aircraft, other than helicopters, flying at 140 kt IAS or less
Class C, D and E airspace ¦ Clear of cloud with the surface in sight ¦ 5 km
Class F and G airspace ¦ Clear of cloud with the surface in sight ¦ 1,500 m
When did this happen? It used to be 3Km vis below 3,000ft and <140kts IAS.

In Ireland SI 72 of 2004 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/si/0072.html has the 3km limit with a note that allows flight down to 1.5km vis in certain conditions

(a) 3 kms. Flight Visibility for aircraft operated at an indicated airspeed of 140 kts or less;

(b) lower flight visibilities to a minimum of 1500m may be permitted for aircraft operating:

(1) at speeds that, in the prevailing visibility will give adequate opportunity to observe other traffic or any obstacles in time to avoid collision, or

(2) in circumstances in which the probability of encounters with other traffic would normally be low, e.g. in areas of low volume traffic and for aerial work at low level;

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Pilot » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:52 am

I started flying in 2001 and I believe the 1500 rule was there then.

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Jim » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:47 pm

Hi all,
I have been asked by numerous members to verify the present AOPA views on this and to clarify a few issues concerning it.

1..As this is an EU Regulation and not a Directive, it is at the discretion of each member state, whether to implement it or not, and if so, how and when.

2..The CORRECTED link to the CAA regulation is
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Informatio ... rected.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3.. No, this does NOT include aircraft registered as a Microlight Aircraft.

4..The aircraft must:
a) not be flown at a height of less than 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 NM unless:
i) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
ii) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority in relation to the area over which the aircraft is flying; or
iii) the aircraft flies at an altitude not exceeding 3,000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and with the surface in sight; and
b) be flown in compliance with articles 45 and 46 of the ANO as though it were flying in circumstances where the commander is required to comply with the IFR.

AOPA Ireland has approached the IAA in in respect of this regulation and still awaiting a response.
Needless to say, implementation of this regulation would avoid the need to seek SVFR, although there never appears to be any issue of receiving it.

I hope the above covers all those who submitted questions.
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Re: VFR at Night

Post by aviatorsguide » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:58 am

"Needless to say, implementation of this regulation would avoid the need to seek SVFR, although there never appears to be any issue of receiving it...."

So how do I get this SVFR clearance to fly at night in Class G airspace?

If you read read:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Informatio ... rected.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the UK exemption is applicable to all airspace. It's simply not the case that operators in Irish airspace must simply get a SVFR clearance, and disappear off into the night where ever you see fit. SVFR clearances are offered at the discretion of ATC within Class C only. I wouldn't fancy going up to negotiate with the IAA, if I didn't have a perfect knowledge of the subject matter that I was debating.

William

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Jim » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:19 am

aviatorsguide wrote:
So how do I get this SVFR clearance to fly at night in Class G airspace?

the UK exemption is applicable to all airspace. It's simply not the case that operators in Irish airspace must simply get a SVFR clearance, and disappear off into the night where ever you see fit. SVFR clearances are offered at the discretion of ATC within Class C only.
As SVFR is a partially controlled flight, you cant under present legislation.

SVFR is generally used for delayed flights or similar, either airborne at the transition or entering the FIR after transition which allows them to safely land at a night equipped aerodrome.
The FIR control (Shannon in this case) are found to be quite accomodating on many an occasion, i doubt if you will have ever heard anything to the contrary.

If the NVFR is implemented in Ireland, it will still only include aerodromes which are night equipped.
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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Pilot » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:04 pm

Jim,

The new Single European Rules of the Air have been published.

It includes the big quoted below.

So unless the IAA make a general authorisation, we won't be allowed to do SVFR at night in the future!

So I guess they have to decide which thing they want to opt out of. VFR at night, or the ban on SVFR at night.

dp
SERA.5010 Special VFR in control zones
Special VFR flights may be authorised to operate within a control zone, subject to an ATC clearance. Except when permitted by the competent authority for helicopters in special cases such as medical flights, search and rescue operations and fire-fighting, the following additional conditions shall be applied:
(a) by the pilot:
(1) clear of cloud and with the surface in sight;
(2) the flight visibility is not less than 1 500 m or, for helicopters, not less than 800 m;
(3) at speed of 140 kts IAS or less to give adequate opportunity to observe other traffic and any obstacles in time to avoid a collision; and
(b) by ATC:
(1) during day only, unless otherwise permitted by the competent authority;
(2) the ground visibility is not less than 1 500 m or, for helicopters, not less than 800 m;
(3) the ceiling is not less than 180 m (600 ft).

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Jim » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:57 pm

SVFR will remain in operation for the following 5 Years or until EASA decides otherwise, whichever is the sooner, but only within CTZ, with the exception of "Special Category" flights.

AOPA has now received a response from IAA regarding the NVFR issue.
The topic of VFR at night in Irish airspace will be reviewed once all of the pertinent information has been received.
This may not seem too promising to some but, the fact that we have those words in writing means we are now in a position to follow this through.
(I dont believe i can think of any airfield in "G" airspace which is night equipped!)

Personally, i quite strongly believe that ALL PPL's should have at least one hour's experience of a night flight.
The experience of the differences, the extra knowledge plus, the observation and estimation skills that can be achieved are priceless.
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Re: VFR at Night

Post by aviatorsguide » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:54 pm

:wink:
Last edited by aviatorsguide on Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Pilot » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:27 pm

But perhaps it might be easier to pursuade the IAA to allow night flight if they thought it would only be happening to regional airports ;) But once the cat is out of the bag....

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Pilot » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:44 pm

Jim wrote:SVFR will remain in operation for the following 5 Years or until EASA decides otherwise,
Jim,

My understanding is EASA has decided otherwise from 14 Dec 2012!
See the SERA here.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 066:EN:PDF

See Article 11
Article 11
Entry into force
1. This Regulation shall enter into force on the twentieth day following that of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union.
It shall apply from 4 December 2012.
2. By way of derogation from the second subparagraph of paragraph 1, Member States may decide not to apply the provisions of this Regulation until 4 December 2014.
It takes effect in 2 months, unless the IAA apply for a derogation in which case we've 2 years and 2 months.

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Jim » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:18 pm

The full regulation takes effect in 2 Months.

Using your link, read on down way below your article 11.
Look for "SERA.5010 Special VFR in control zones", that is part of the SAME regulation!
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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Pilot » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:53 am

Yes Jim. Look 5 posts above! I quoted 5010 to you. Look at the first requirement of ATC for SVFR. They can't give it at night!

This comes into effect in 2months.

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Re: VFR at Night

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:03 am

Yes! Nothing has changed.

Do you not consider a Senior ATC Officer or Supervisor as a COMPETENT authority?

SVFR MUST remain as its a safety issue.
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