irish atc on strike

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scraggane
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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by scraggane » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:17 pm

this thread lost all credibility when somebody said that what Thatcher did in the UK in the 80's was the right way!! :roll:

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Jim » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:05 am

viz wrote:A very one sided point of view been expressed here.!! The Stoppage is not directly about money as said above, its an attempt to halt the race to the bottom. These people are highly trained and yes they do have the power to cause a lot of disruption unlike a lot of ordinary workers whose boss jumped on the recession bandwagon to drive down terms and conditions.

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/402624 ... ended.html
The dispute ONLY has 2 channels....
1.. Why it exists
2.. What caused it

Answers
1 Solely because 15 controllers were suspended.
2 Refusal to operate new equipment/upgrades

Pay was never mentioned
The media attempted to sway the dispute towards the pay conflict.
That is not the case as their Pay and Pensions desputes is marked for hearing by the Labor court
Your link is full of properganda from ATC's which are obviously IMPACT members.
If you look on a thread elsewhere you will see a post from an ATC who is not an IMPACT member!
May open your eyes in what he/she has to say.

The truth is that many people were let down very badly by announcing a stoppage with 1 days notice.
ATC are not on many pilots xmas card lists, and now not many passengers list either.
any suport they may have had is fading rapidly.

I personally pray for the day semi-state bodies will come on line like state bodies....NO UNIONS!
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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by inverted » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:30 am

Yet again we are being bullied into submission by a semi-state monopoly that has the government and every man, women and child in this country over a barrel.

The government needs to be robust on this issue and install the Aer Corp's immediately until these warped attempts at self promotion and job justification is brought to a complete and unadulterated resolution once and for all.

With power comes responsibility, a responsibility that has been abused.

We are an Island nation on the periphery of Europe and need our Airports as a matter of national and economic security.

Both the IAA and the controllers are guilty of reckless endangerment of our already fragile economy.

The public cannot be expected to support a group of individuals seeking a 6% pay increase that are already on €160,000 and are now strangling the country.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is an insult to the intelligence of the working people of Ireland ?

Should you feel as strongly on this as I do why not voice your concerns as Mol suggests below
“Passengers affected by these flight cancellations should seek compensation from IMPACT General Secretary Peter McLoone at tgriffin@impact.ie or on +353-1- 8171529.”

We should also note the IAA have as much blood on there hands as IMPACT but precedent would dictate as they are a semi-state company there will be little if any accountability.

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by hum » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:02 am

Jim wrote:
The dispute ONLY has 2 channels....
1.. Why it exists
2.. What caused it

Answers
1 Solely because 15 controllers were suspended.
2 Refusal to operate new equipment/upgrades
Can anyone on here explain what the objection is to the new equipment/upgrages

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Nanolight » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:06 am

I would be very interested in that information too. They are being very restrictive with th details of the technology they are releasing.

According to an IMPACT representative on radio one the other day, the new equipment made the ATC's job more difficult and time consuming.

Why would any employer introduce equipment that makes their employees' jobs more difficult and time consuming?
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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Jim » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:57 am

Apparently, they are refusing to operate the computers that have been upgraded.
This upgrade is ongoing for the past couple of years and they have been using it since its start.
Similar to changing from Windows XP to Vista!

BUT, suddeny now they refuse any further operation until they receive a 6% pay increase.
(I must add the increase was granted by the labour court but appealed by IAA, this appeal makes the grant void until it is investigated by the appeals board!)
The IAA are asking them to suspend their pay dispute while the rest of the country are taking pay cuts.

From IAA

Code: Select all

The work that controllers are now refusing to do is work they have been doing for the last two years and were doing until three weeks ago. On January 1st 2010, they refused to continue such work. No business can have its staff dictate what work they will do and will not do, particularly in a safety-critical business such as ours.

All air traffic control systems are continuously upgraded as a matter of course. This is a high-tech service requiring ongoing technical upgrades to its systems, many of them Windows-based.
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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Pilot » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:18 pm

Jim,

I don't think AOPA Ireland should be taking sides in this dispute, unless there is good reason to. While I agree with most of what you say, this is not a dispute with AOPA, any my wading in, you'll simply gain enemies when there is nothing useful to be gained.

Perhaps your comments are ment to be in a personal capacity rather than AOPA, but they do carry the AOPA logo beside each one!

Perhaps it was a good opportunity for AOPA to flex it's muscle in doing something useful to gain credability. Instead of getting argumentative, you could have been lobbying the IAA to ensure that any airspace without a controller to manage it, would be downgraded to class G until a controller was available, thereby allowing anyone with strips under Class C airspace access to them.

Perhaps it's not too late, if more strikes are on the way. It would be a useful (and probably easy) win for AOPA, and help to show what a representative organasiation can do.

I think that would be more useful than taking sides, where nothing is to be gained.

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Jim » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:41 pm

Pilot wrote:Jim,

I don't think AOPA Ireland should be taking sides in this dispute, unless there is good reason to.
Like good reason 1
We were asked to intervene when a member was unable to complete a Belfast - Dublin leg on a medical flight!

Or good reason 2
Where a member had to close his flying school at lunchtime yesterday, despite the fact that there would be no traffic using the circuit.

IMPACT represents its ATC controllers.
AOPA represents its members.
Whats the difference?
you could have been lobbying the IAA to ensure that any airspace without a controller to manage it, would be downgraded to class G until a controller was available, thereby allowing anyone with strips under Class C airspace access to them
This has already been proposed by AOPA Ireland, (see website - front page) and has been rejected on safety grounds.

I apologize, if you feel my comments are "taking sides", this is unintential as we must look at all points of view, however, what i have posted are facts! and these facts are there for anyone to see.

Myself, and 2 others from AOPA Ireland spent 2 hours in meetings with IAA yesterday, the above issue was covered as well as many others.
It was rather obvious, despite our "Tiger" approach on some issues, that our stance on the present dispute certainly gained us some "Favourable" credability. Which we believe will stand for some time to come.

But do not mis-understand us here, we do not consider ourselves as one of IAA's allies, we represent our members and will be taking only their side in any dispute with anyone.
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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Pilot » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:49 pm

IMPACT represents its ATC controllers.
AOPA represents its members.
Whats the difference?
Well, the difference I see, is that your earlier comment did not make any reference to difficulty your members were experiencing and possible solutions. Instead you seemed to have taken a side in a dispute, for no particular purpose. From your post above, you did have some purpose, but that wasn't communicated.

My intension was not to critisise, but rather to offer some guidance on how it could be seen. Take of it what you will.

I am not a member of AOPA, and as such have no right to tell you how to run your organisation, nor how to represent your members, so I'll make no further comment on this. I just thougt that you might find an outsiders view helpful, and the suggestion of asking for controlled airspace to revert to class G a useful 'easy win' to help promote your organisation.

P

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by MarBergi » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:10 pm

inverted wrote:
The government needs to be robust on this issue and install the Aer Corp's immediately until these warped attempts at self promotion and job justification is brought to a complete and unadulterated resolution once and for all.
Would the Aer Corp have enough bodies to even think about doing this. If you count Dublin alone you would need 10/12 heads per shift, never mind Cork, Shannon and CTR. Even then would they be rated on the positions, as while it was stated earlier that they were trained there, the rating is more than likely similiar to an aircraft rating - you dont use it you dont keep it.

Also would they be upto speed - no offense intended but controlling Baldonnel is a whole lot different to controlling Dublin, kinda like Sunday league to Premier league if you use an soccer ananlogy really.

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by fly4life » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:01 pm

Being mainly a GA forum has anyone considered how these new systems might affect the GA community.
Any changes in the last few years have caused an increase in costs or further restriction to GA.
I have flown in and out of most of the main airports and found atc staff very accomidating.
These new systems may further restrict the ability for GA to operate in and out of these airports or transit trough their zones.
From the outside it looks like there was promblems between both sides and they agreed to go to the labour court but the IAA pushed ahead without any court decision.
The IAA are acting like dictators,pushing on regardless.
If company's are allowed to act like this thing can only get worse for all PAYE.
Flying is getting to expensive for alot of people and if terms and conditions get worse in the PAYE GA will be back to a hobby of the privileged.
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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Jim » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:18 pm

Like most computer software upgrades, this will allow a controller to perform more tasks in a shorter time.
fly4life wrote:Being mainly a GA forum has anyone considered how these new systems might affect the GA community.
Any changes in the last few years have caused an increase in costs or further restriction to GA.
I have flown in and out of most of the main airports and found atc staff very accomidating.
These new systems may further restrict the ability for GA to operate in and out of these airports or transit trough their zones.
This upgrade actually HELPS the GA to operate within any aerodrome circuit or zone, it forms part of SESAR which has been developing within the euro zone for the previous 2 years.
Using this system will, in years to come, fully automate ATC.
From the outside it looks like there was promblems between both sides and they agreed to go to the labour court but the IAA pushed ahead without any court decision.
The IAA went ahead in January 2008 following an overall agreement within EU states, there was no labour court intervention then, and ATC has been using it since then!

I you have Microsoft Powerpoint on your computer download and look at this from our last regional meeting in Barcelona
SJU overview - IAOPA RM.zip
(243.05 KiB) Downloaded 102 times
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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by MarBergi » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:13 am

Jim wrote:Like most computer software upgrades, this will allow a controller to perform more tasks in a shorter time.
If thats the case why was Dublin's flow rate per hour reduced by Eurcontrol?

New computer does not always equate to a faster/better system - it can just as equally equate to a system that is cheaper to run, remember it is often the accountants that decide what will and won't happen, not the operational staff.

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by tally1 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:45 am

Jim @ AOPA shame on you. You really have been taken hook line and sinker by the IAA. If you are the impartial ,even handed,inquiring sort who claims to represent GA in Ireland then you have been sold a pup by IAA. You have your own agenda which is fair enough,but by taking sides,showing a complete ignorance of ATC,its equipment and procedures you have already made a fool of yourself.

You have taken sides-fact
Everything you have said is either a LIE or not factual at all-FACT
In return for a slap on the back and god knows what else from the IAA you seem quite happy to slate and slag off without reason or competent knowledge the very people who look after YOU. FACT

If you believe despite your ignorance on the matter that our systems are going from windows XP to Vista then you are so laughably off the mark YOU are actually funny. Its either that or you believe what the IAA accountant told you like a little school boy would believe his parents about the tooth fairy.

If you believe that a 'computer' upgrade allows controllers to do more tasks in a shorter time then good for you but ATC isnt microsoft word processor you know. In fact the system we have increases controller workload with each upgrade. It takes more time,more input and more time eyes off the moving traffic to keep the computer system working as it should. Eurocontrol decraesed our capacites because of this. NOT the controllers. In fact 'feeding' the sysytem has had SERIOUS SAFETY implications because controllers have distracted feeding the system. FACT. Still think its a windows vista upgrade?

By the way this 'upgrade' has so far cost 125 million euro and all it is a the moment is a computer program no hardware in use yet. So we havent been using this at all because its no where near ready.

As for controller pay..well the IAA are telling lies. FACT.The top of the scale is 95k the start is 55k. For two years while training get around 16k.Now dont get me wrong the money is very good and im gratefull for it. BUT i do work my socks off for it. I work 41 hrs a week that includes being up to my neck in planes at 4am when im sure you are tucked up in bed. We work christmas day new years in fact 365 days a year and yes it is busy on christmas day. In fact we work the same hours as those in office. We do get one extra day off tho.

The IAA makes 11 to 19 million euro profit every year 99% of that is made by controllers. Yet we manage to do this by being the second cheapest ATC provbider in Europe. Only Albania is cheaper. To put some figures on thiss the IAA charge approx 25 odd euros for each charging unit while the UK charge 85 euro appprox per unit for the EXACT same service. So we are the cheapest in europe, we make a healthy profit every year,we are net contributors to the exchequer so why shouldnt we get the market rate for controllers?

And just so there is no doubt what all this was about-the IAA suspended controllers with no pay while negiotaions were on going before the labour court. IF your colleagues and friends who have wifes,kids mortgages to pay got sent home with no pay for no good reason you would do what you had to do to get them back.
We didnt start this . And on wednesday the IAA escaleted it again by docking everyone who attended the meeting a full days pay.Most controllers only were gone for 1 or 2 hours out of the rostered duty times yet the IAA illegally docked a full days pay? WHY-they wanted a full strike by us. BUT we worked for FREE that day. WE have worked for FREE in past too like when the ran us down to dangerous staffing levels. They didnt believe it until we proved it to them by a work to rule and they backed down and hired 60 new student controllers and 22 direct entry pre-qualified controllers. So they were iether telling big lies before that we were fully sstaffed or they are totally profligate and hired 80+ controllers for no reason.

Hope that sheds some light on the matter.

PS I am a AOPA meber so i can say shame on you JIM

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Re: irish atc on strike

Post by Nanolight » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:47 pm

IF your colleagues and friends who have wifes,kids mortgages to pay got sent home with no pay for no good reason you would do what you had to do to get them back.
What about clocking up the bones of a thousand euro an hour in machine down-time because the replacement part was sitting on the tarmac in the Airport?

What about companies who depend on next day delivery all over the country?

What about people who had missed holidays (paid for), missed exams, business meetings, medical flights?

Do you think it's acceptable to f**k the entire country over for an entire day just to make a point?
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